There is a certain type of person who would look at the mountains of skulls that Genghis Khan piled up and before judging it evil, ask whether it was a state acting or a group of individuals.
Fuck that. States/governments, “democratic” or otherwise, have absolutely no privileged moral status, and to hell with any norm that suggests otherwise, and to hell with any “civilization” that promotes such a norm.
What the state can do is wield violence far more effectively than you, so if you want to level a city, say, Beijing or Moscow, yeah, you should get the US military to do it instead of trying to do it yourself. And it can wield violence against you if you defy its will, so it’s a bad idea to do so publicly, but for purely pragmatic reasons, not moral ones.
Morality is multifaceted and multilevel. If you have a naive form of morality that is just “I do whatever I think is the right thing to do”, you are not coordinating or being moral, you are just selfish.
Coordination is not inherently always good. You can coordinate with one group to more effectively do evil against another. But scalable Good is always built on coordination. If you want to live in a lawful, stable, scalable, just civilization, you will need to coordinate with your civilization and neighbors and make compromises.
As a citizen of a modern country, you are bound by the social contract. Part of the social contract is “individuals are not allowed to use violence against other individuals, except in certain circumstances like self defense.” [1] Now you might argue that this is a bad contract or whatever, but it is the contract we play by (at least in the countries I have lived in), and I think unilaterally reneging on that contract is immoral. Unilaterally saying “I will expose all of my neighbors to risk of death from AGI because I think I’m a good person” is very different from “we all voted and the majority decided building AGI is a risk worth taking.”
Now, could it be that you in some exceptional circumstances need to do something immoral to prevent some even greater tragedy? Sure, it can happen. Murder is bad, but self defense can make it on net ok. But just because it’s self defense doesn’t make murder moral, it just means there was an exception in this case. War is bad, but sometimes countries need to go to war. That doesn’t mean war isn’t bad.
Civilization is all about commitments, and honoring them. If you can’t honor your commitments to your civilization, even when you disagree with them sometimes, you are not civilized and are flagrantly advertising your defection. If everyone does this, we lose civilization.
Morality is actually hard, and scalable morality/civilization is much, much harder. If an outcome you dislike happened because of some kind of consensus, this has moral implications. If someone put up a shitty statue that you hate in the town square because he’s an asshole, that’s very different morally from “everyone in the village voted, and they like the statue and you don’t, so suck it up.” If you think “many other people want X and I want not X” has no moral implications whatsoever your “morality” is just selfishness.[2]
I do in fact believe morality to be entirely orthogonal to “consensus” or what “many other people” want, and since you call this “selfishness,” I shall return the favor and call your view, for all that you frame it as “coordination” or “scalable morality,” abject bootlicking.
A roaming bandit’s “do what I tell you and you get to live” could be thought of a kind of contract, I suppose, but I wouldn’t consider myself bound by it if I could get away with breaching it. I consider the stationary bandits’ “social contracts” not to be meaningfully different. One clue to how they’re similar is how the more powerful party can go, à la Vader, “Here is a New Deal. Pray I don’t renew it any further.” Unilaterally reneging on such a contract when you are the weaker party would certainly be unwise, for the same reason trying to stand between a lynch mob and its intended victim would be—simple self-preservation—but I condemn the suggestion that it would be immoral.
If everyone does this, we lose civilization.
I see what you call “civilization,” and I’m against it. I vaguely recall reading of a medieval Christian belief that if everyone stopped sinning for a day, Christ would return and restore the Kingdom of Heaven. This reminds me of that: would be nice, but it ain’t gonna happen.
I agree that morality and consensus are in principle not the same—Nazis or any evil society is an easy counterexample. (One could argue Nazis did not have the consensus of the entire world, but you can then just imagine a fully evil population.)
But for one, simply rejecting civilization and consensus based on “you have no rigorous definition of them and also look at Genghis Khan/Nazis this proves that governments are evil” is like, basically, putting the burden of proof on the side that is arguing for civilization and common sense morality, which is suspicious.
I’m open to alternatives, but just saying “governments can be evil therefor I reject it, full stop” is not that helpful for discourse. Like what do you wanna do, just abolish civilization?
So consider a handwavy view of morality and of what a “good civilization” looks like. Let’s assume common sense morality is correct, and that mostly everyone understands what this means: “don’t steal, don’t hurt people, leave people alone unless they’re doing bad things, don’t be a sex pervert, etc.”. And assume most people agree with this and want to live by this. Then when you have consensus, meaningmost people are observing and agreeing that civilization (or practically speaking, the area or community over which they have a decent amount of influence), is abiding by “common sense morality”, then everything is basically moral and fine.
(I also want to point out that caring too much on pinpointing what morality means exactly and how to put it into words, distracts from solving practical problems where it’s extremely obvious what is morally going wrong, but where you have to sort out the “implementation details”.)
There is a certain type of person who would look at the mountains of skulls that Genghis Khan piled up and before judging it evil, ask whether it was a state acting or a group of individuals.
Fuck that. States/governments, “democratic” or otherwise, have absolutely no privileged moral status, and to hell with any norm that suggests otherwise, and to hell with any “civilization” that promotes such a norm.
What the state can do is wield violence far more effectively than you, so if you want to level a city, say, Beijing or Moscow, yeah, you should get the US military to do it instead of trying to do it yourself. And it can wield violence against you if you defy its will, so it’s a bad idea to do so publicly, but for purely pragmatic reasons, not moral ones.
Morality is multifaceted and multilevel. If you have a naive form of morality that is just “I do whatever I think is the right thing to do”, you are not coordinating or being moral, you are just selfish.
Coordination is not inherently always good. You can coordinate with one group to more effectively do evil against another. But scalable Good is always built on coordination. If you want to live in a lawful, stable, scalable, just civilization, you will need to coordinate with your civilization and neighbors and make compromises.
As a citizen of a modern country, you are bound by the social contract. Part of the social contract is “individuals are not allowed to use violence against other individuals, except in certain circumstances like self defense.” [1] Now you might argue that this is a bad contract or whatever, but it is the contract we play by (at least in the countries I have lived in), and I think unilaterally reneging on that contract is immoral. Unilaterally saying “I will expose all of my neighbors to risk of death from AGI because I think I’m a good person” is very different from “we all voted and the majority decided building AGI is a risk worth taking.”
Now, could it be that you in some exceptional circumstances need to do something immoral to prevent some even greater tragedy? Sure, it can happen. Murder is bad, but self defense can make it on net ok. But just because it’s self defense doesn’t make murder moral, it just means there was an exception in this case. War is bad, but sometimes countries need to go to war. That doesn’t mean war isn’t bad.
Civilization is all about commitments, and honoring them. If you can’t honor your commitments to your civilization, even when you disagree with them sometimes, you are not civilized and are flagrantly advertising your defection. If everyone does this, we lose civilization.
Morality is actually hard, and scalable morality/civilization is much, much harder. If an outcome you dislike happened because of some kind of consensus, this has moral implications. If someone put up a shitty statue that you hate in the town square because he’s an asshole, that’s very different morally from “everyone in the village voted, and they like the statue and you don’t, so suck it up.” If you think “many other people want X and I want not X” has no moral implications whatsoever your “morality” is just selfishness.[2]
(building AGI that might kill everyone to try to create your vision of utopia is “using violence”)
(I expect you don’t actually endorse this, but your post does advocate for this)
I do in fact believe morality to be entirely orthogonal to “consensus” or what “many other people” want, and since you call this “selfishness,” I shall return the favor and call your view, for all that you frame it as “coordination” or “scalable morality,” abject bootlicking.
A roaming bandit’s “do what I tell you and you get to live” could be thought of a kind of contract, I suppose, but I wouldn’t consider myself bound by it if I could get away with breaching it. I consider the stationary bandits’ “social contracts” not to be meaningfully different. One clue to how they’re similar is how the more powerful party can go, à la Vader, “Here is a New Deal. Pray I don’t renew it any further.” Unilaterally reneging on such a contract when you are the weaker party would certainly be unwise, for the same reason trying to stand between a lynch mob and its intended victim would be—simple self-preservation—but I condemn the suggestion that it would be immoral.
I see what you call “civilization,” and I’m against it. I vaguely recall reading of a medieval Christian belief that if everyone stopped sinning for a day, Christ would return and restore the Kingdom of Heaven. This reminds me of that: would be nice, but it ain’t gonna happen.
I agree that morality and consensus are in principle not the same—Nazis or any evil society is an easy counterexample.
(One could argue Nazis did not have the consensus of the entire world, but you can then just imagine a fully evil population.)
But for one, simply rejecting civilization and consensus based on “you have no rigorous definition of them and also look at Genghis Khan/Nazis this proves that governments are evil” is like, basically, putting the burden of proof on the side that is arguing for civilization and common sense morality, which is suspicious.
I’m open to alternatives, but just saying “governments can be evil therefor I reject it, full stop” is not that helpful for discourse. Like what do you wanna do, just abolish civilization?
So consider a handwavy view of morality and of what a “good civilization” looks like. Let’s assume common sense morality is correct, and that mostly everyone understands what this means: “don’t steal, don’t hurt people, leave people alone unless they’re doing bad things, don’t be a sex pervert, etc.”. And assume most people agree with this and want to live by this. Then when you have consensus, meaning most people are observing and agreeing that civilization (or practically speaking, the area or community over which they have a decent amount of influence), is abiding by “common sense morality”, then everything is basically moral and fine.
(I also want to point out that caring too much on pinpointing what morality means exactly and how to put it into words, distracts from solving practical problems where it’s extremely obvious what is morally going wrong, but where you have to sort out the “implementation details”.)