I do in fact believe morality to be entirely orthogonal to “consensus” or what “many other people” want, and since you call this “selfishness,” I shall return the favor and call your view, for all that you frame it as “coordination” or “scalable morality,” abject bootlicking.
A roaming bandit’s “do what I tell you and you get to live” could be thought of a kind of contract, I suppose, but I wouldn’t consider myself bound by it if I could get away with breaching it. I consider the stationary bandits’ “social contracts” not to be meaningfully different. One clue to how they’re similar is how the more powerful party can go, à la Vader, “Here is a New Deal. Pray I don’t renew it any further.” Unilaterally reneging on such a contract when you are the weaker party would certainly be unwise, for the same reason trying to stand between a lynch mob and its intended victim would be—simple self-preservation—but I condemn the suggestion that it would be immoral.
If everyone does this, we lose civilization.
I see what you call “civilization,” and I’m against it. I vaguely recall reading of a medieval Christian belief that if everyone stopped sinning for a day, Christ would return and restore the Kingdom of Heaven. This reminds me of that: would be nice, but it ain’t gonna happen.
I agree that morality and consensus are in principle not the same—Nazis or any evil society is an easy counterexample. (One could argue Nazis did not have the consensus of the entire world, but you can then just imagine a fully evil population.)
But for one, simply rejecting civilization and consensus based on “you have no rigorous definition of them and also look at Genghis Khan/Nazis this proves that governments are evil” is like, basically, putting the burden of proof on the side that is arguing for civilization and common sense morality, which is suspicious.
I’m open to alternatives, but just saying “governments can be evil therefor I reject it, full stop” is not that helpful for discourse. Like what do you wanna do, just abolish civilization?
So consider a handwavy view of morality and of what a “good civilization” looks like. Let’s assume common sense morality is correct, and that mostly everyone understands what this means: “don’t steal, don’t hurt people, leave people alone unless they’re doing bad things, don’t be a sex pervert, etc.”. And assume most people agree with this and want to live by this. Then when you have consensus, meaningmost people are observing and agreeing that civilization (or practically speaking, the area or community over which they have a decent amount of influence), is abiding by “common sense morality”, then everything is basically moral and fine.
(I also want to point out that caring too much on pinpointing what morality means exactly and how to put it into words, distracts from solving practical problems where it’s extremely obvious what is morally going wrong, but where you have to sort out the “implementation details”.)
I do in fact believe morality to be entirely orthogonal to “consensus” or what “many other people” want, and since you call this “selfishness,” I shall return the favor and call your view, for all that you frame it as “coordination” or “scalable morality,” abject bootlicking.
A roaming bandit’s “do what I tell you and you get to live” could be thought of a kind of contract, I suppose, but I wouldn’t consider myself bound by it if I could get away with breaching it. I consider the stationary bandits’ “social contracts” not to be meaningfully different. One clue to how they’re similar is how the more powerful party can go, à la Vader, “Here is a New Deal. Pray I don’t renew it any further.” Unilaterally reneging on such a contract when you are the weaker party would certainly be unwise, for the same reason trying to stand between a lynch mob and its intended victim would be—simple self-preservation—but I condemn the suggestion that it would be immoral.
I see what you call “civilization,” and I’m against it. I vaguely recall reading of a medieval Christian belief that if everyone stopped sinning for a day, Christ would return and restore the Kingdom of Heaven. This reminds me of that: would be nice, but it ain’t gonna happen.
I agree that morality and consensus are in principle not the same—Nazis or any evil society is an easy counterexample.
(One could argue Nazis did not have the consensus of the entire world, but you can then just imagine a fully evil population.)
But for one, simply rejecting civilization and consensus based on “you have no rigorous definition of them and also look at Genghis Khan/Nazis this proves that governments are evil” is like, basically, putting the burden of proof on the side that is arguing for civilization and common sense morality, which is suspicious.
I’m open to alternatives, but just saying “governments can be evil therefor I reject it, full stop” is not that helpful for discourse. Like what do you wanna do, just abolish civilization?
So consider a handwavy view of morality and of what a “good civilization” looks like. Let’s assume common sense morality is correct, and that mostly everyone understands what this means: “don’t steal, don’t hurt people, leave people alone unless they’re doing bad things, don’t be a sex pervert, etc.”. And assume most people agree with this and want to live by this. Then when you have consensus, meaning most people are observing and agreeing that civilization (or practically speaking, the area or community over which they have a decent amount of influence), is abiding by “common sense morality”, then everything is basically moral and fine.
(I also want to point out that caring too much on pinpointing what morality means exactly and how to put it into words, distracts from solving practical problems where it’s extremely obvious what is morally going wrong, but where you have to sort out the “implementation details”.)