Did you ever spell out the meta and ask them? “It seems to me like you believe false things too easily. Obviously it doesn’t seem like that to you. Is there a test we could do that would convince me you’re right or convince you I’m right depending on how the test turned out? Like, maybe you could pick 20 beliefs that aren’t mainstream and guess how many will hold up if we investigate closely, together, and I could also guess, and if you guess something like 18 and I guess something like 4 and we investigate and jointly decide the right answer was 15 then I admit I have a problem or if we jointly decide the right answer was 5 then you admit you have a problem?”
In practice I could see this working quite well with many of my friends who … don’t believe false things too easily. And it would be a “look at you weirdly and walk away non-starter” for the folks I know who I think do believe false things too easily. So ??? but I’m still curious whether you did try direct communication about the meta rather than a grab bag of concretes.
Is there a test we could do that would convince me you’re right or convince you I’m right depending on how the test turned out?
We did get to a point where we wanted them to take literally any formal bet to demonstrate that they even believe the things they are saying and that there is a real object-level disagreement, and they wouldn’t, anticipating malicious fuckerry no matter the terms. That was where I broke off. I suppose, maybe that was one important piece of rationalist culture they did not have. Uncooperative in engaging the disagreement in a respectful, grounded way.
I suppose it would be more suitable if instead of wagering money we wagered duties, as wagering money isn’t really appropriate between friends, and probably makes them feel insecure. Something like “If your surface reading of this claim turns out to be wrong after it has been more deeply investigated, then you must investigate three more claims. And if two of those are wrong, you must investigate 5 more” or something like that. “If you are right, then we must listen to more of your shit (if you refuse to bet, then some of us definitely aren’t listening to more of your shit)”
Between friends I usually wager a sandwich or a cup of coffee. Enough to make it clear that a specific bet is being articulated and agreed upon, but not enough to really hurt anyone’s feelings if they lose.
Did you ever spell out the meta and ask them? “It seems to me like you believe false things too easily. Obviously it doesn’t seem like that to you. Is there a test we could do that would convince me you’re right or convince you I’m right depending on how the test turned out? Like, maybe you could pick 20 beliefs that aren’t mainstream and guess how many will hold up if we investigate closely, together, and I could also guess, and if you guess something like 18 and I guess something like 4 and we investigate and jointly decide the right answer was 15 then I admit I have a problem or if we jointly decide the right answer was 5 then you admit you have a problem?”
In practice I could see this working quite well with many of my friends who … don’t believe false things too easily. And it would be a “look at you weirdly and walk away non-starter” for the folks I know who I think do believe false things too easily. So ??? but I’m still curious whether you did try direct communication about the meta rather than a grab bag of concretes.
We did get to a point where we wanted them to take literally any formal bet to demonstrate that they even believe the things they are saying and that there is a real object-level disagreement, and they wouldn’t, anticipating malicious fuckerry no matter the terms. That was where I broke off. I suppose, maybe that was one important piece of rationalist culture they did not have. Uncooperative in engaging the disagreement in a respectful, grounded way.
I suppose it would be more suitable if instead of wagering money we wagered duties, as wagering money isn’t really appropriate between friends, and probably makes them feel insecure.
Something like “If your surface reading of this claim turns out to be wrong after it has been more deeply investigated, then you must investigate three more claims. And if two of those are wrong, you must investigate 5 more” or something like that. “If you are right, then we must listen to more of your shit (if you refuse to bet, then some of us definitely aren’t listening to more of your shit)”
Between friends I usually wager a sandwich or a cup of coffee. Enough to make it clear that a specific bet is being articulated and agreed upon, but not enough to really hurt anyone’s feelings if they lose.