Yes, there would be some significant losses in the first few generations. But if you teleport the top 10 000 scientist and engineers onto an alien world with no human artifacts and leave them in human bodies, there will also be some significant losses in the first few generations. Once data storage technology is able to keep up with the volume of knowledge retained, then the losses will stop, and knowledge will slowly start to be regained.
If they’re sensible, they’ll realise that they can’t retain everything, and put some effort into retaining that which is important.
And even after you’re storing the knowledge, you’re still entirely out of luck on tools. Even if they have waterproof’d encyclopaedia handed to them, they still have this make tools to make tools to make tools cycle that they can’t even bootstrap.
Why not? Hydraulic cement will harden underwater, and can be carefully pressed and moulded into shape. And while I have no idea how dolphins can get to that point, apparently even underwater welding is possible.
’cause nothing they know is particularly useful for future generations. You just get distorted myths, and it doesn’t take much distortion until technical knowledge becomes entirely non trustworthy and thus worthless.
Why not? Hydraulic cement will harden underwater
But can you make hydraulic cement underwater? I was under the impression that you needed fire to make it.
’cause nothing they know is particularly useful for future generations.
Knowing how to make hydraulic cement isn’t useful?
I am quite certain that the 10 000 top engineers and scientists know quite a few things that would be very useful for future generations. Since I am not in that number, and since I am only one person, I do not know what those things would be, but I estimate a high probability that they exist.
But can you make hydraulic cement underwater? I was under the impression that you needed fire to make it.
I’m not sure. The Wikipedia article mentions that the ancient Romans used a mixture of volcanic ash and crushed lime, and you certainly do get underwater volcanoes, so the ash should be available… there are probably industrial processes now, but just mixing volcanic ash with the right sort of mud and getting something that hardens if you leave it for a day or two sounds usable underwater to me.
I do not know what those things would be, but I estimate a high probability that they exist.
But it’s not enough to convey the formulas, you need also to convey the context. And you need to do so reliably, without later generations adding in nonsense of their own. When the knowledge is in use, it’s naturally checked against reality and protected against decay.
re: cement, my understanding is that you still need to fire components to make hydraulic cement, and underwater ash won’t work.
But it’s not enough to convey the formulas, you need also to convey the context. And you need to do so reliably, without later generations adding in nonsense of their own. When the knowledge is in use, it’s naturally checked against reality and protected against decay.
Which means that they will best remember things that they can immediately put to use, yes. Such as how to breed fish for desired characteristics, maybe? Or how to create some basic tools.
But what those tools may be, besides the tools real dolphins already invented? And breeding fish requires some sort of enclosure, ability to manipulate individual fish, etc. It’s not even clear there’s anything to gain from breeding fish if you don’t do some underwater agriculture for fish food (and thus need fish very different from available species to make full use of that).
Perhaps the reasons dolphin’s large brains are not particularly optimized (comparing to ours) in terms of neural density, despite ample time at their brain volume, is that they already do pretty much everything that a greater intellect would do.
On the ground and with the hands, when our intelligence was the same as of dolphins, we had a lot of complex and useful things we could have been doing if we were a little smarter, and that’s how we evolved our intelligence (and conversely, how they didn’t evolve much further).
Why on earth would they lose everything?
Yes, there would be some significant losses in the first few generations. But if you teleport the top 10 000 scientist and engineers onto an alien world with no human artifacts and leave them in human bodies, there will also be some significant losses in the first few generations. Once data storage technology is able to keep up with the volume of knowledge retained, then the losses will stop, and knowledge will slowly start to be regained.
If they’re sensible, they’ll realise that they can’t retain everything, and put some effort into retaining that which is important.
Why not? Hydraulic cement will harden underwater, and can be carefully pressed and moulded into shape. And while I have no idea how dolphins can get to that point, apparently even underwater welding is possible.
’cause nothing they know is particularly useful for future generations. You just get distorted myths, and it doesn’t take much distortion until technical knowledge becomes entirely non trustworthy and thus worthless.
But can you make hydraulic cement underwater? I was under the impression that you needed fire to make it.
Knowing how to make hydraulic cement isn’t useful?
I am quite certain that the 10 000 top engineers and scientists know quite a few things that would be very useful for future generations. Since I am not in that number, and since I am only one person, I do not know what those things would be, but I estimate a high probability that they exist.
I’m not sure. The Wikipedia article mentions that the ancient Romans used a mixture of volcanic ash and crushed lime, and you certainly do get underwater volcanoes, so the ash should be available… there are probably industrial processes now, but just mixing volcanic ash with the right sort of mud and getting something that hardens if you leave it for a day or two sounds usable underwater to me.
No, the ash would react with water immeadetly and thus be useless and you need burned lime (CaO or (CaOH)2), not limestone (CaCO3)
Ah, thank you. I wasn’t sure about that.
But it’s not enough to convey the formulas, you need also to convey the context. And you need to do so reliably, without later generations adding in nonsense of their own. When the knowledge is in use, it’s naturally checked against reality and protected against decay.
re: cement, my understanding is that you still need to fire components to make hydraulic cement, and underwater ash won’t work.
Which means that they will best remember things that they can immediately put to use, yes. Such as how to breed fish for desired characteristics, maybe? Or how to create some basic tools.
But what those tools may be, besides the tools real dolphins already invented? And breeding fish requires some sort of enclosure, ability to manipulate individual fish, etc. It’s not even clear there’s anything to gain from breeding fish if you don’t do some underwater agriculture for fish food (and thus need fish very different from available species to make full use of that).
Perhaps the reasons dolphin’s large brains are not particularly optimized (comparing to ours) in terms of neural density, despite ample time at their brain volume, is that they already do pretty much everything that a greater intellect would do.
On the ground and with the hands, when our intelligence was the same as of dolphins, we had a lot of complex and useful things we could have been doing if we were a little smarter, and that’s how we evolved our intelligence (and conversely, how they didn’t evolve much further).