I really dislike the central example used in this post, for reasons explained in this article. I hope it isn’t included in the next LW book series without changing to a better example.
This comment leads me to believe that you misunderstand the point of the example. Demonstrating that an arguer doesn’t have a coherent understanding of their claim doesn’t mean that the claim itself is incoherent. It just means that if you argue against that particular person on that particular claim nobody is likely to gain anything out of it[1]. The validity of the example does not correlate to whether “Uber exploits its drivers!” or not.
You agree with Steve in the example and because the example shows Steve being unable to defend his point you don’t like it. You should strive to understand however that Steve’s incoherent defense of his claim has nothing to do with your very coherent reasons for believing the same claim.
I think that the example is strengthened if Steve’s central claim is correct despite the fact that he can’t defend it coherently.
At least, that’s my take. I haven’t read the rest of this sequence yet so I don’t know if Liron explains what you gain out of discovering that somebody’s argument is incoherent.
This looks like a case where hanging a lampshade would be useful. A footnote on the original claim by Steve saying:
“The Steve character here does not have the eloquence to express this argument, but <source> and <source> present the case that Uber does, in fact, exploit its workers”
Making an unnecessary and possibly false object-level claim would only hurt the post. It’s irrelevant to Liron’s discussion whether Steve’s claim is right or wrong and getting sidetracked by it’s potential truthfulness would muddy the point.
Yeah, that’s why I didn’t advocate making an argument, just acknowledging that such arguments exist, and linking to a couple of reasonable ones.
If an author chooses to use a real-world example, and uses a staw man as one side, that is automatically going to generate bad feelings in people who know better the better arguments. By hanging a lampshade on the straw man, the author aknowledges those feelings, explicitly sets them aside, and the discussion of debate technique (or other meta-level review) can proceed from there without getting sidetracked.
And yes, the reader could make that inference, but
Don’t make the reader do more work than necessary.
I don’t understand your usage of the term “hanging a lampshade” in this context. I don’t think either Steve’s or Liron’s behavior in the hypothetical is unrealistic or unreasonable. I have seen similar conversations before. Liron even stated that the Steve was basically him from some time ago. I thought hanging a lampshade is when the fictional scenario is unrealistic or overly coincidental and the author wants to alleviate reader ire by letting them know that he thinks the situation is unlikely as well. Since the situation here isn’t unrealistic, I don’t see the relevance of hanging a lampshade.
If the article should be amended to include pro-”Uber exploits drivers” arguments it should also include contra arguments to maintain parity. Otherwise we have the exact same scenario but in reverse, as including only pro-”Uber exploits drivers” arguments will “automatically [...] generate bad feelings in people who know better the better arguments”. This is why getting into the object-level accuracy of Steve’s claim has negative value. Trying to do so will bloat the article and muddy the waters.
Steve’s argumemt is explicitly bad, but the original post doesn’t say that better arguments exist. And “Uber exploits workers?” isn’t a settled question like, say, “vaccines cause autism?” or “new species develop from existing species.” so the author shouldn’t presume that the audience is totally familiar with the relative merits of both (or either) side(s), and can recognize that Steve is making a relatively poor argument for his point.
And the overall structure pattern-matches to straw man fallacy. Perhaps that’s the only thing that needs to be lampshade? If instead of ’Steve” the character is called “Scarecrow” (and then call the other one Dorathy, for narrative consistency/humor)
It worked straightforwardly in an incognito window for me.
Only section I could find that seemed relevant to the example is this:
Uber exploited artificial market power to subvert normal market dynamics. Its extensive driver recruitment programs used gross dishonesty to deceive drivers, including ongoing misrepresentations of gross pay (prior to deducting vehicle costs) as net pay, and at one point the company claimed that Uber drivers in New York averaged $90,000 in annual earnings. Uber’s shift of the full vehicle burden onto drivers created additional artificial power. Traditional cab drivers could easily move to other jobs if they were unhappy, but Uber’s drivers were locked into vehicle financial obligations that made it much more difficult to leave once they discovered how poor actual pay and conditions were.
Overall, I do think the article makes some decent points, but I am overall not particularly compelled by it. The document seems to try to argue that Uber cannot possibly become profitable. I would be happy to take a bet that Uber will become profitable within the next 5 years.
It also makes some weak arguments that drivers are worse off working for Uber, but doesn’t really back them up, just saying that “Uber pushed them down to minimum wage”, but seems to completely ignore the value of flexibility of working for Uber, which (talking to many drivers over the years, as well as friends who temporarily got into driving for Uber) is one of the biggest value adds for drivers.
The document seems to try to argue that Uber cannot possibly become profitable. I would be happy to take a bet that Uber will become profitable within the next 5 years.
I really dislike the central example used in this post, for reasons explained in this article. I hope it isn’t included in the next LW book series without changing to a better example.
This comment leads me to believe that you misunderstand the point of the example. Demonstrating that an arguer doesn’t have a coherent understanding of their claim doesn’t mean that the claim itself is incoherent. It just means that if you argue against that particular person on that particular claim nobody is likely to gain anything out of it[1]. The validity of the example does not correlate to whether “Uber exploits its drivers!” or not.
You agree with Steve in the example and because the example shows Steve being unable to defend his point you don’t like it. You should strive to understand however that Steve’s incoherent defense of his claim has nothing to do with your very coherent reasons for believing the same claim.
I think that the example is strengthened if Steve’s central claim is correct despite the fact that he can’t defend it coherently.
At least, that’s my take. I haven’t read the rest of this sequence yet so I don’t know if Liron explains what you gain out of discovering that somebody’s argument is incoherent.
This looks like a case where hanging a lampshade would be useful. A footnote on the original claim by Steve saying: “The Steve character here does not have the eloquence to express this argument, but <source> and <source> present the case that Uber does, in fact, exploit its workers”
Making an unnecessary and possibly false object-level claim would only hurt the post. It’s irrelevant to Liron’s discussion whether Steve’s claim is right or wrong and getting sidetracked by it’s potential truthfulness would muddy the point.
Yeah, that’s why I didn’t advocate making an argument, just acknowledging that such arguments exist, and linking to a couple of reasonable ones.
If an author chooses to use a real-world example, and uses a staw man as one side, that is automatically going to generate bad feelings in people who know better the better arguments. By hanging a lampshade on the straw man, the author aknowledges those feelings, explicitly sets them aside, and the discussion of debate technique (or other meta-level review) can proceed from there without getting sidetracked.
And yes, the reader could make that inference, but
Don’t make the reader do more work than necessary.
It (may) be epistemically damaging to expose people to bad arguments: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inoculation_theory
Not all readers implicitly trust the storyteller, and by avoiding plot holes, the author can avoid knocking the narritive train onto a sidetrack. https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=17692
I don’t understand your usage of the term “hanging a lampshade” in this context. I don’t think either Steve’s or Liron’s behavior in the hypothetical is unrealistic or unreasonable. I have seen similar conversations before. Liron even stated that the Steve was basically him from some time ago. I thought hanging a lampshade is when the fictional scenario is unrealistic or overly coincidental and the author wants to alleviate reader ire by letting them know that he thinks the situation is unlikely as well. Since the situation here isn’t unrealistic, I don’t see the relevance of hanging a lampshade.
If the article should be amended to include pro-”Uber exploits drivers” arguments it should also include contra arguments to maintain parity. Otherwise we have the exact same scenario but in reverse, as including only pro-”Uber exploits drivers” arguments will “automatically [...] generate bad feelings in people who know better the better arguments”. This is why getting into the object-level accuracy of Steve’s claim has negative value. Trying to do so will bloat the article and muddy the waters.
Steve’s argumemt is explicitly bad, but the original post doesn’t say that better arguments exist. And “Uber exploits workers?” isn’t a settled question like, say, “vaccines cause autism?” or “new species develop from existing species.” so the author shouldn’t presume that the audience is totally familiar with the relative merits of both (or either) side(s), and can recognize that Steve is making a relatively poor argument for his point. And the overall structure pattern-matches to straw man fallacy. Perhaps that’s the only thing that needs to be lampshade? If instead of ’Steve” the character is called “Scarecrow” (and then call the other one Dorathy, for narrative consistency/humor)
Alas, paywall. Summary?
It worked straightforwardly in an incognito window for me.
Only section I could find that seemed relevant to the example is this:
Overall, I do think the article makes some decent points, but I am overall not particularly compelled by it. The document seems to try to argue that Uber cannot possibly become profitable. I would be happy to take a bet that Uber will become profitable within the next 5 years.
It also makes some weak arguments that drivers are worse off working for Uber, but doesn’t really back them up, just saying that “Uber pushed them down to minimum wage”, but seems to completely ignore the value of flexibility of working for Uber, which (talking to many drivers over the years, as well as friends who temporarily got into driving for Uber) is one of the biggest value adds for drivers.
And indeed it already has.