If I must write on the wiki as well, I won’t have anything else done that needs doing. I think the article became less balanced as a result of your contribution, and this is a negative effect of your contribution that comes in a package with the positive effect of making it. You’ve improved things, but also made them worse in another sense. (Yes, I’m still procrastinating on the Welcoming Skills thing.)
I must point out that, as you have already noted, the wiki is all but dead. You noted this as if you considered it a bad thing.
If you’re going to have a wiki at all, then you must consider that there are ways that work and ways that don’t. There is lots and lots and lots of experience of others for you to work from in this regard.
(Article polish tends to work on a cycle of 1. polished article. 2. someone adds missing bit, article looks unpolished and lumpy. 3. someone else adds more to balance. 4. maybe a rewrite. 5. repeat. This is how it actually works on wikis that aren’t dead.)
Wikis work on incremental improvement from imperfection, sometimes quite awful imperfection. If you can’t stand imperfection, a wiki is going to be a fundamentally painful tool to use. A healthy wiki is a living thing with lumpy and smelly bits.
If you can’t stand imperfection, a wiki is going to be a fundamentally painful tool to use.
There is also a failure mode where a wiki becomes a garbage dump. This is particularly easy when there is little activity, and LW wiki has little activity. If we had several concerned editors, then less control would be better, but not currently where we have none (even I’m not an active editor, I just quality-check). There is no magic, something must work as a ratchet that keeps improving quality, and on popular wikis it’s the sufficient number of editors that don’t let quality drop on the scale of months, even if it drops locally, and low-quality or badly-balanced contributions give them raw material.
The only interesting prospect in the current situation is if reducing control incited more activity, but I don’t think my attitude is that off-putting, a relevant reason shaping the current situation.
If you want the activity to go up, you’re going to have to start with getting content by whatever means, even if you don’t think it’s up to scratch. The way to get it up to scratch is to fix the problems yourself and lead by example, rather than to try to strongly moderate contributions; the latter is how to douse a wiki.
When I’m saying all this stuff, I’m speaking from considerable experience watching all manner of wikis (public and intranet) run, fail to run, start or fail to start. I see no reason the LW wiki is special in these senses. You appear to me to be speaking from personal surmise; I’m speaking from experience in and observation of what generally works and what doesn’t.
Step one: get more contributions. They will be lumpy, and that’s fine. That’s how all wikis start. If you think they’re not good enough, your options are (1) fix them yourself and lead by example (2) kill the wiki. (2) is also achievable by hard enough wortk at dousing enthusiasm, particularly nascent enthusiasm.
Remember that wikis can’t possibly work—by which I mean they seem to jar human expectations—except they do. The trick is you have to keep things slightly more open than you can stand.
Is a highly imperfect and lumpy LW wiki better than no LW wiki? I think it is, and that it will improve with continued participation. You appear to think not.
I’m telling you that to get the good stuff you want, you do have to go through being nowhere near as good first. That’s how wikis work.
The way to get it up to scratch is to fix the problems yourself and lead by example, rather than to try to moderate contributions.
Yes, this would work, but the option is not available. I can’t do that, this is not sufficiently important for me. Working on decision theory is more important. (I believe you are currently not qualified to do that in the spirit of LW, and would drive the wiki in a wrong direction. It would become a non-LW wiki covering topics inspired by LW.) There are lots of people who are qualified, but they don’t work on the wiki.
You appear to me to be speaking from personal surmise; I’m speaking from experience in and observation of what generally works and what doesn’t.
I don’t believe we’ve yet pinpointed a single point of disagreement (that is, a single fact that we both understand but expect to have different properties). Advice you were giving had preconditions that aren’t met here.
If you think they’re not good enough, your options are (1) fix them yourself (2) kill the wiki.
If you put it like that, the only option available is to kill the wiki. I expect there are better third options.
Remember that wikis can’t possibly work—by which I mean they seem to jar human expectations—except they do.
I reject you appeal to mystical knowledge. I understand how wikis that work do so.
Is an highly imperfect and lumpy LW wiki better than no LW wiki?
It’s probably worse than the current LW wiki, which is in turn better than no LW wiki. The only reason to allow the current LW wiki to become imperfect and lumpy would be expectation that this step implements a process that eventually makes it better than it is currently. You need to make that case for this wiki.
Yes, this would work, but the option is not available. I can’t do that, this is not sufficiently important for me. Working on decision theory is more important. (I believe you are currently not qualified to do that in the spirit of LW, and would drive the wiki in a wrong direction. It would become a non-LW wiki covering topics inspired by LW.) There are lots of people who are qualified, but they don’t work on the wiki.
I tend to share your perspective. We definitely don’t want a mediocre wiki that doesn’t represent LW content. That would be worse than nothing. Moreover there are already other wikis around that can fill that niche. RationalWiki, perhaps?
While not ideal there it would not be a huge problem if the wiki was limited to a few pages like the sequence index and an expanded glossary. What is important is that we don’t have any content there that is not taken almost directly from unambiguously upvoted posts that were promoted on the front page. If there is anything there that isn’t just a summarized version of a post for the purpose of easy linking then it does not belong.
I believe you are currently not qualified to do that in the spirit of LW, and would drive the wiki in a wrong direction. It would become a non-LW wiki covering topics inspired by LW.
Then someone (if not you) needs to set out, in detail, what the desired vision for the wiki is. Because at present, it’s entirely unclear what you intend it to be useful for. Saying “no that’s not it, I don’t like that, try again” is not helpful.
There are lots of people who are qualified, but they don’t work on the wiki.
Do they care?
You’re making an argument toward shutting it down, as the wrong tool for the job (that you haven’t specified).
Is an highly imperfect and lumpy LW wiki better than no LW wiki?
It’s probably worse than the current LW wiki, which is in turn better than no LW wiki. The only reason to allow the current LW wiki to become imperfect and lumpy would be expectation that this step implements a process that eventually makes it better than it is currently.
Yes, that’s precisely what I’m saying: it will get worse as part of the process of getting to better.
You need to make that case for this wiki.
My case is that that’s how wikis work generally. As such, if you disagree, you need to say how this one would come to life by some other process (what that process is and preferably some examples to point to).
Then someone (if not you) needs to set out, in detail, what the desired vision for the wiki is. Because at present, it’s entirely unclear what you intend it to be useful for. Saying “no that’s not it, I don’t like that, try again” is not helpful.
I’m not sure what Vladimir’s vision is—and this is more or less his baby—but the wiki is most useful as a way to reduce inferential distance for newcomers by serving as a reference for jargon and cached thoughts.
It does not need to go into any detail. All significant content should be posted in the form of blog posts where it can (, will and probably already has been) be discussed in depth.
No lumps allowed! Sparsity and incompleteness are to be preferred to lumps. The wiki does not need to be complete. A standalone wiki cannot afford to be lacking in content. A LW wiki can. Because this is a blog, not a wiki. There is plenty of content here. If all the ‘wiki’ did was have a dozen pages with indexes and a few references then it would still be serving a purpose.
No lumps allowed! Sparsity and incompleteness are to be preferred to lumps.
I think that the big difference between David’s viewpoint and yours is that he views a wiki as a living, growing thing. The trouble with your slogans above is that they effectively become:
No lumps allowed ever! Perpetual sparsity and incompleteness are to be preferred to occasional and temporary lumps.
Did you really mean to make these slogans so strong?
I think that the big difference between David’s viewpoint and yours is that he views a wiki as a living, growing thing.
Not really. I view it as a living thing with higher standards and without a willingness to sacrifice quality for growth.
The trouble with your slogans above is that they effectively become:
You are toeing a line here between inappropriate and disingenuous. Not only are my assertions of preference not slogans I was only reluctantly going along with David’s ‘lumps’ metaphor because there were more important things to criticize than an awkward description.
You then proceed to overtly misquote me, adding words that change the meaning to something I quite obviously did not intend. Following up with “Did you really mean to make these slogans so strong?” just strikes the logical rudeness home.
occasional and temporary lumps.
Aside from not being what I referred to this does not accurately represent the kind of system that David was describing either.
Cargo cult is not your friend. Just because healthy wikis have this workflow, doesn’t mean that bringing it here will make our wiki healthy. We need an understanding of how that would incite new editors. I expect that it won’t, and if new editors ever appear, it will happen for other reasons.
It’s experience, not cargo culting. There is a difference.
What brings new editors to a wiki is the wiki, and contributing to it, being personally useful to them. Then the wiki process of collaborative editing kicks in.
(e.g. I edit it to create pages I find personally useful to link to concerning LW concepts, for example. I expect others to have other uses.)
It’s a wiki, you know what to do :-) The exploitability needs links too.
(I’m going to be noting in general when something prompts me to fiddle with the wiki, to advertise the thing.)
If I must write on the wiki as well, I won’t have anything else done that needs doing. I think the article became less balanced as a result of your contribution, and this is a negative effect of your contribution that comes in a package with the positive effect of making it. You’ve improved things, but also made them worse in another sense. (Yes, I’m still procrastinating on the Welcoming Skills thing.)
I must point out that, as you have already noted, the wiki is all but dead. You noted this as if you considered it a bad thing.
If you’re going to have a wiki at all, then you must consider that there are ways that work and ways that don’t. There is lots and lots and lots of experience of others for you to work from in this regard.
(Article polish tends to work on a cycle of 1. polished article. 2. someone adds missing bit, article looks unpolished and lumpy. 3. someone else adds more to balance. 4. maybe a rewrite. 5. repeat. This is how it actually works on wikis that aren’t dead.)
Wikis work on incremental improvement from imperfection, sometimes quite awful imperfection. If you can’t stand imperfection, a wiki is going to be a fundamentally painful tool to use. A healthy wiki is a living thing with lumpy and smelly bits.
There is also a failure mode where a wiki becomes a garbage dump. This is particularly easy when there is little activity, and LW wiki has little activity. If we had several concerned editors, then less control would be better, but not currently where we have none (even I’m not an active editor, I just quality-check). There is no magic, something must work as a ratchet that keeps improving quality, and on popular wikis it’s the sufficient number of editors that don’t let quality drop on the scale of months, even if it drops locally, and low-quality or badly-balanced contributions give them raw material.
The only interesting prospect in the current situation is if reducing control incited more activity, but I don’t think my attitude is that off-putting, a relevant reason shaping the current situation.
If you want the activity to go up, you’re going to have to start with getting content by whatever means, even if you don’t think it’s up to scratch. The way to get it up to scratch is to fix the problems yourself and lead by example, rather than to try to strongly moderate contributions; the latter is how to douse a wiki.
When I’m saying all this stuff, I’m speaking from considerable experience watching all manner of wikis (public and intranet) run, fail to run, start or fail to start. I see no reason the LW wiki is special in these senses. You appear to me to be speaking from personal surmise; I’m speaking from experience in and observation of what generally works and what doesn’t.
Step one: get more contributions. They will be lumpy, and that’s fine. That’s how all wikis start. If you think they’re not good enough, your options are (1) fix them yourself and lead by example (2) kill the wiki. (2) is also achievable by hard enough wortk at dousing enthusiasm, particularly nascent enthusiasm.
Remember that wikis can’t possibly work—by which I mean they seem to jar human expectations—except they do. The trick is you have to keep things slightly more open than you can stand.
Is a highly imperfect and lumpy LW wiki better than no LW wiki? I think it is, and that it will improve with continued participation. You appear to think not.
I’m telling you that to get the good stuff you want, you do have to go through being nowhere near as good first. That’s how wikis work.
Yes, this would work, but the option is not available. I can’t do that, this is not sufficiently important for me. Working on decision theory is more important. (I believe you are currently not qualified to do that in the spirit of LW, and would drive the wiki in a wrong direction. It would become a non-LW wiki covering topics inspired by LW.) There are lots of people who are qualified, but they don’t work on the wiki.
I don’t believe we’ve yet pinpointed a single point of disagreement (that is, a single fact that we both understand but expect to have different properties). Advice you were giving had preconditions that aren’t met here.
If you put it like that, the only option available is to kill the wiki. I expect there are better third options.
I reject you appeal to mystical knowledge. I understand how wikis that work do so.
It’s probably worse than the current LW wiki, which is in turn better than no LW wiki. The only reason to allow the current LW wiki to become imperfect and lumpy would be expectation that this step implements a process that eventually makes it better than it is currently. You need to make that case for this wiki.
I tend to share your perspective. We definitely don’t want a mediocre wiki that doesn’t represent LW content. That would be worse than nothing. Moreover there are already other wikis around that can fill that niche. RationalWiki, perhaps?
While not ideal there it would not be a huge problem if the wiki was limited to a few pages like the sequence index and an expanded glossary. What is important is that we don’t have any content there that is not taken almost directly from unambiguously upvoted posts that were promoted on the front page. If there is anything there that isn’t just a summarized version of a post for the purpose of easy linking then it does not belong.
Then someone (if not you) needs to set out, in detail, what the desired vision for the wiki is. Because at present, it’s entirely unclear what you intend it to be useful for. Saying “no that’s not it, I don’t like that, try again” is not helpful.
Do they care?
You’re making an argument toward shutting it down, as the wrong tool for the job (that you haven’t specified).
Yes, that’s precisely what I’m saying: it will get worse as part of the process of getting to better.
My case is that that’s how wikis work generally. As such, if you disagree, you need to say how this one would come to life by some other process (what that process is and preferably some examples to point to).
I’m not sure what Vladimir’s vision is—and this is more or less his baby—but the wiki is most useful as a way to reduce inferential distance for newcomers by serving as a reference for jargon and cached thoughts.
It does not need to go into any detail. All significant content should be posted in the form of blog posts where it can (, will and probably already has been) be discussed in depth.
No lumps allowed! Sparsity and incompleteness are to be preferred to lumps. The wiki does not need to be complete. A standalone wiki cannot afford to be lacking in content. A LW wiki can. Because this is a blog, not a wiki. There is plenty of content here. If all the ‘wiki’ did was have a dozen pages with indexes and a few references then it would still be serving a purpose.
I think that the big difference between David’s viewpoint and yours is that he views a wiki as a living, growing thing. The trouble with your slogans above is that they effectively become:
Did you really mean to make these slogans so strong?
Not really. I view it as a living thing with higher standards and without a willingness to sacrifice quality for growth.
You are toeing a line here between inappropriate and disingenuous. Not only are my assertions of preference not slogans I was only reluctantly going along with David’s ‘lumps’ metaphor because there were more important things to criticize than an awkward description.
You then proceed to overtly misquote me, adding words that change the meaning to something I quite obviously did not intend. Following up with “Did you really mean to make these slogans so strong?” just strikes the logical rudeness home.
Aside from not being what I referred to this does not accurately represent the kind of system that David was describing either.
No, actually it does. There will always be lumps, but any given lump will be temporary.
LW wiki is not a healthy wiki, it’s important to keep this in mind when making decisions about it.
Yes, exactly. This is why we have to start even lumpier and smellier. What I mean is that that will never go away.
Cargo cult is not your friend. Just because healthy wikis have this workflow, doesn’t mean that bringing it here will make our wiki healthy. We need an understanding of how that would incite new editors. I expect that it won’t, and if new editors ever appear, it will happen for other reasons.
It’s experience, not cargo culting. There is a difference.
What brings new editors to a wiki is the wiki, and contributing to it, being personally useful to them. Then the wiki process of collaborative editing kicks in.
(e.g. I edit it to create pages I find personally useful to link to concerning LW concepts, for example. I expect others to have other uses.)