Eliezer writes: “What distinguishes a semantic stopsign is failure to consider the obvious next question.”
I think that you are being unfair here, because you are not reading the fine print. The signs actually read “Stop, then proceed with caution.” The subtext is that if you proceed beyond this point, you are going to need a different kind of explanation than the one which has served so far. Ask an atheist where life today came from and he will tell you that it came from past life (and definitely from more than 6000 years ago). Pursue the chain of causality and eventually you will come to a stop sign. “Abiogenesis” says the smart atheist. “Prebiotic soup” catechises the stupid one. These are stop signs, but they are necessary stop signs. They don’t so much fail to consider the obvious next question as warn that the obvious next question may be a misleading question. What is going on in the vicinity of the stop sign may be completely different in kind from the kind of thing you are familiar with. Or so claims the stop-sign poster. It is not an explanation, to be sure. But it is something of a hypothesis. Like a notation in the unexplored area of a map. “Here there be phase-transitions.”
And if Eliezer believes that defenders of the idea of a First Cause have really failed to consider the obvious next question, then I have to marvel at his lack of scholarship. Hey, I am as atheist as the next guy, but I’m getting pretty tired of finding that all of the negative examples in this series are theists and alchemists. There are plenty more examples of bad thinking to pick on.
What if you are trying to explain evolution to someone and he states “Evolution is just another religion.” Is that a stop sign? To me it is, in the sense that the only reason to continue at that point would be to enjoy the sound of your own voice. The person has just signalled his membership in a tribe; you recognize that you are not in that tribe; and you recognize that he will not consider anything further you have to say on the subject, because that would be disloyal to the tribe.
Global warming is a religion, taxation is theft, property is theft, healthcare is not a right (I’m not sure if the reverse is used as a flag, too), there is no peace without justice, “allopathic medicine”; there are a lot of them. I’m old enough to remember “The Soviet Union is a state in transition,” too. (Sadly, it was in transition to total collapse.) All these statements are what Eliezer calls “Green and Blue” (I think—those are the two chariot racing team colors, right?) markers. I’m not sure if these statements are also semantic stop signs.
Anyway, I think that class of statement is very different than statements like abiogenesis or prebiotic soup, because the latter statements indicate that the original topic has been exhausted. That line of reasoning has gone to its logical end, and to continue conversing, we must switch to a different discussion. Not quite the same thing as saying that “tribal loyalty dictates that I do not use reason to consider anything further you say on this subject.”
I’d be careful before writing off otherwise polite and thoughtful people as irrational loyalists simply on the basis of a single semantic stop sign.
For one thing, you might be getting a false positive—sometimes I say things like “there is no peace without justice,” but I don’t mean to cut off debate about political science; I’m just trying to call people’s attention to the possibility that the people they see as violent troublemakers may simply be responding to a perceived injustice.
For another, even an intentional semantic stop sign might not indicate unthinking loyalty; it may simply indicate that your listener has erroneously concluded that there is nothing more to say about a particular topic. Some libertarians might think that taxation is theft, not because they refuse to listen to your counterarguments, but because they can’t imagine a morally legitimate real-world government.
Finally, attempting to identify semantic stop signs with the motive of screening out those who are unworthy of further conversation will inevitably lead to improper rationalization; you will feel subjectively that someone is unworthy of conversation and then concoct a story for yourself about why the other person has been using stop signs.
Thus, it is better to ask people what kind of argument might convince them than to assume that people are irrational.
What if you are trying to explain evolution to someone and he states “Evolution is just another religion.” Is that a stop sign? To me it is, in the sense that the only reason to continue at that point would be to enjoy the sound of your own voice. The person has just signaled his membership in a tribe …
Oh, I agree that it is a tribal slogan, signaling tribal membership. But before interpreting it as a stop sign, I’d want to ask myself just why he had come up with that particular slogan at that point in our conversation. Did he somehow perceive that I wasn’t really explaining evolution, I was preaching it? That I wasn’t just trying to correct misconceptions regarding a set of ideas, that I was trying to convert him? That I wasn’t really interested in his opinions, but that I wanted him to enjoy the sound of my voice?
Well, yes, if that seems to be the reason that slogan just happened to pop into his head, then stopping is probably the best option.
But if it seems that he said that simply because it was his turn to speak and that is one learned slogan he hadn’t used yet, then I would treat the statement as a question, “Evolution is just another religion, isn’t it?” And I would answer, “No not like a religion at all. Evolution only deals with the subject matter of two chapters of Genesis; it doesn’t even attempt to answer the questions that the rest of the Bible deals with. Some evolutionists are Catholics, some are Jews, some are Protestants, some are atheists. What kind of crazy religion is that?” Who knows? Maybe that will make him think a bit. But yes, beyond trying to clarify what evolution is and is not, I wouldn’t try to get him to leave his tribe. I would feel rather silly if I had been trying to do that in the first place.
Evangelizing, rather than simply explaining, about science is pointless. You cannot succeed unless the person is open to learning. And if they are open, then explaining should be all that is needed.
Eliezer writes: “What distinguishes a semantic stopsign is failure to consider the obvious next question.”
I think that you are being unfair here, because you are not reading the fine print. The signs actually read “Stop, then proceed with caution.” The subtext is that if you proceed beyond this point, you are going to need a different kind of explanation than the one which has served so far. Ask an atheist where life today came from and he will tell you that it came from past life (and definitely from more than 6000 years ago). Pursue the chain of causality and eventually you will come to a stop sign. “Abiogenesis” says the smart atheist. “Prebiotic soup” catechises the stupid one. These are stop signs, but they are necessary stop signs. They don’t so much fail to consider the obvious next question as warn that the obvious next question may be a misleading question. What is going on in the vicinity of the stop sign may be completely different in kind from the kind of thing you are familiar with. Or so claims the stop-sign poster. It is not an explanation, to be sure. But it is something of a hypothesis. Like a notation in the unexplored area of a map. “Here there be phase-transitions.”
And if Eliezer believes that defenders of the idea of a First Cause have really failed to consider the obvious next question, then I have to marvel at his lack of scholarship. Hey, I am as atheist as the next guy, but I’m getting pretty tired of finding that all of the negative examples in this series are theists and alchemists. There are plenty more examples of bad thinking to pick on.
What if you are trying to explain evolution to someone and he states “Evolution is just another religion.” Is that a stop sign? To me it is, in the sense that the only reason to continue at that point would be to enjoy the sound of your own voice. The person has just signalled his membership in a tribe; you recognize that you are not in that tribe; and you recognize that he will not consider anything further you have to say on the subject, because that would be disloyal to the tribe. Global warming is a religion, taxation is theft, property is theft, healthcare is not a right (I’m not sure if the reverse is used as a flag, too), there is no peace without justice, “allopathic medicine”; there are a lot of them. I’m old enough to remember “The Soviet Union is a state in transition,” too. (Sadly, it was in transition to total collapse.) All these statements are what Eliezer calls “Green and Blue” (I think—those are the two chariot racing team colors, right?) markers. I’m not sure if these statements are also semantic stop signs. Anyway, I think that class of statement is very different than statements like abiogenesis or prebiotic soup, because the latter statements indicate that the original topic has been exhausted. That line of reasoning has gone to its logical end, and to continue conversing, we must switch to a different discussion. Not quite the same thing as saying that “tribal loyalty dictates that I do not use reason to consider anything further you say on this subject.”
I’d be careful before writing off otherwise polite and thoughtful people as irrational loyalists simply on the basis of a single semantic stop sign.
For one thing, you might be getting a false positive—sometimes I say things like “there is no peace without justice,” but I don’t mean to cut off debate about political science; I’m just trying to call people’s attention to the possibility that the people they see as violent troublemakers may simply be responding to a perceived injustice.
For another, even an intentional semantic stop sign might not indicate unthinking loyalty; it may simply indicate that your listener has erroneously concluded that there is nothing more to say about a particular topic. Some libertarians might think that taxation is theft, not because they refuse to listen to your counterarguments, but because they can’t imagine a morally legitimate real-world government.
Finally, attempting to identify semantic stop signs with the motive of screening out those who are unworthy of further conversation will inevitably lead to improper rationalization; you will feel subjectively that someone is unworthy of conversation and then concoct a story for yourself about why the other person has been using stop signs.
Thus, it is better to ask people what kind of argument might convince them than to assume that people are irrational.
Oh, I agree that it is a tribal slogan, signaling tribal membership. But before interpreting it as a stop sign, I’d want to ask myself just why he had come up with that particular slogan at that point in our conversation. Did he somehow perceive that I wasn’t really explaining evolution, I was preaching it? That I wasn’t just trying to correct misconceptions regarding a set of ideas, that I was trying to convert him? That I wasn’t really interested in his opinions, but that I wanted him to enjoy the sound of my voice?
Well, yes, if that seems to be the reason that slogan just happened to pop into his head, then stopping is probably the best option.
But if it seems that he said that simply because it was his turn to speak and that is one learned slogan he hadn’t used yet, then I would treat the statement as a question, “Evolution is just another religion, isn’t it?” And I would answer, “No not like a religion at all. Evolution only deals with the subject matter of two chapters of Genesis; it doesn’t even attempt to answer the questions that the rest of the Bible deals with. Some evolutionists are Catholics, some are Jews, some are Protestants, some are atheists. What kind of crazy religion is that?” Who knows? Maybe that will make him think a bit. But yes, beyond trying to clarify what evolution is and is not, I wouldn’t try to get him to leave his tribe. I would feel rather silly if I had been trying to do that in the first place.
Evangelizing, rather than simply explaining, about science is pointless. You cannot succeed unless the person is open to learning. And if they are open, then explaining should be all that is needed.
Not necessarily. Maybe you should persist and try to persuade onlookers?