Confirmed that application and focus is a somewhat different thing (though related, in my case at least), and we’re talking more about conformance to imposed schedules and external expectations of monitorable behavior.
Disagree that it’s not useful at IQ 140. It’s a lower proportion of success than for someone closer to the mean, but still a nice still to have and removes some barriers to establishing one’s talents.
Also, I’m comfortable with not having significant accommodation for distant outliers. Actually, for such people, the habits and skills of not getting killed by one’s “peers’ is pretty important. High school sucks for those it’s not evolved/equilibriated for, but it’s temporary.
The situation is not symmetric. I really want to accommodate far-right-tail outliers. They are what moves your science/tech/society forwards.
I think we’re going to disagree a bit here on what ‘accomodate’ means here. I want to mold and control the far-right-tail outliers (as well as the middle hump) so they are more likely to move science/tech/society forward in ways that I like.
I wrote that too quickly. Forcing geniuses to learn to operate when the less-gifted are in positions of power is good for the geniuses AND good for society (though incredibly frustrating for all participants). It doesn’t really fit on a “suppression vs relinquish control” axis.
Relatedly, I don’t believe it’s possible to identify the top 1⁄2 of 1% all that well, and even if we did, there’s so much individual variation that we wouldn’t be able to predict what differences we should accommodate vs allowing/forcing the student to figure out how to (appear to) comply.
I think you’re right that the top 1⁄2 of 1% are much more varied and idiosyncratic than the norm, because they are all going to be gifted in very unique and divergent ways.
However, honestly I think the best way to utilize them (and remove tremendous frustration on both their part and the part of people who would manage them) is treat them like a black box; tell them, “ok, go off and act as you would by default. We’ll make sure no one will bother you. Sink or swim on your own, though. Try to find something interesting. Good luck.
Some of them may not produce all that much of use, but it’s no big loss since they’re only a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the population. And some of them will find and create very unique and interesting things, things that only they could find and create. And that more than offsets the losses from the ones that by chance don’t work out.
When I wrote “I want to accommodate” I meant “create conditions where they would be productive and effective”—it wasn’t really about command-and-control.
Forcing geniuses to learn to operate when the less-gifted are in positions of power is good
Again, sure, but no one is suggesting building some sort of a refuge for the gifted (Galt’s Gulch?) where they could be spared the ravages of the dumb normie society. The are forced to learn in any case.
The whole “show up neatly groomed and dressed” thing is teaching kids to emit particular social signals, it’s just that these signals are more suited (heh) for some situations (e.g. you’re applying for a sales clerk position at Macy’s) and less suited for others. If you are looking to hire a programmer and the candidate shows up in a fancy business suit (while showing all signs of being comfortable in it) with a carefully attended-to hairdo, I don’t think those signals would be well-received.
I don’t think that the “show up neatly groomed and dressed” thing is teaching kids to emit particular social signals that is less suitable to a programmer coming to an interview. Both scenarios are about conforming to social norms and for students that happens to be literally neatly groomed/dressed, which for the programmer means no business suit. It’s just more useful to use the phrase neatly groomed/dressed than socially appropriate because for most things socially appropriate is neatly groomed/dressed.
Being socially appropriate is not overrated conditional on IQ – you have already established that the programmer (presumably your high IQ example) is aware of the dangers of coming in like a weirdo in a business suit to an interview. Why wouldn’t the younger version of this person also want to not look like a weirdo to their peers while in school?
I think you are talking about a more sophisticated version (“being socially appropriate”) and in the context of schools teaching kids its’ considerably more basic (e.g. for boys “get a short, neat haircut, no one will hire if you look like a hippy”).
It’s been a long time since I was in high school (disclosure: I barely passed many classes, and was not in competition for a prestigious university, though I did manage to get 20 AP credits and aced the math SAT), but I don’t recall that the version of “groomed and dressed” then was a particularly different requirement than my current employment as a principal engineer at a large tech company.
Showing up on time for appointments remains rather important. Behaving compatibly with a range of others likewise. Truly bad grooming is, in fact, a hindrance. Formal coiffure and sartorial prowess isn’t particularly helpful, but is less of a hindrance than aggressively-casual (stained sweats and flip-flops).
If it was “show up acceptably groomed and dressed, and with a base level of politeness in behavior to people around you”, would you be happier with the description?
I don’t dispute that being able to meet middle-class social norms of dress and grooming is helpful. What I said is that I think it’s overrated (conditional on high IQ). Looking like everyone else is useful but not that useful.
Confirmed that application and focus is a somewhat different thing (though related, in my case at least), and we’re talking more about conformance to imposed schedules and external expectations of monitorable behavior.
Disagree that it’s not useful at IQ 140. It’s a lower proportion of success than for someone closer to the mean, but still a nice still to have and removes some barriers to establishing one’s talents.
Also, I’m comfortable with not having significant accommodation for distant outliers. Actually, for such people, the habits and skills of not getting killed by one’s “peers’ is pretty important. High school sucks for those it’s not evolved/equilibriated for, but it’s temporary.
Sure and that is perfectly compatible with being overrated :-)
The situation is not symmetric. I really want to accommodate far-right-tail outliers. They are what moves your science/tech/society forwards.
I think we’re going to disagree a bit here on what ‘accomodate’ means here. I want to mold and control the far-right-tail outliers (as well as the middle hump) so they are more likely to move science/tech/society forward in ways that I like.
Well, everyone does X-/
The interesting question is what happens when you find out you can’t. Double down on suppression or relinquish control?
I wrote that too quickly. Forcing geniuses to learn to operate when the less-gifted are in positions of power is good for the geniuses AND good for society (though incredibly frustrating for all participants). It doesn’t really fit on a “suppression vs relinquish control” axis.
Relatedly, I don’t believe it’s possible to identify the top 1⁄2 of 1% all that well, and even if we did, there’s so much individual variation that we wouldn’t be able to predict what differences we should accommodate vs allowing/forcing the student to figure out how to (appear to) comply.
I think you’re right that the top 1⁄2 of 1% are much more varied and idiosyncratic than the norm, because they are all going to be gifted in very unique and divergent ways.
However, honestly I think the best way to utilize them (and remove tremendous frustration on both their part and the part of people who would manage them) is treat them like a black box; tell them, “ok, go off and act as you would by default. We’ll make sure no one will bother you. Sink or swim on your own, though. Try to find something interesting. Good luck.
Some of them may not produce all that much of use, but it’s no big loss since they’re only a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the population. And some of them will find and create very unique and interesting things, things that only they could find and create. And that more than offsets the losses from the ones that by chance don’t work out.
When I wrote “I want to accommodate” I meant “create conditions where they would be productive and effective”—it wasn’t really about command-and-control.
Again, sure, but no one is suggesting building some sort of a refuge for the gifted (Galt’s Gulch?) where they could be spared the ravages of the dumb normie society. The are forced to learn in any case.
The whole “show up neatly groomed and dressed” thing is teaching kids to emit particular social signals, it’s just that these signals are more suited (heh) for some situations (e.g. you’re applying for a sales clerk position at Macy’s) and less suited for others. If you are looking to hire a programmer and the candidate shows up in a fancy business suit (while showing all signs of being comfortable in it) with a carefully attended-to hairdo, I don’t think those signals would be well-received.
I don’t think that the “show up neatly groomed and dressed” thing is teaching kids to emit particular social signals that is less suitable to a programmer coming to an interview. Both scenarios are about conforming to social norms and for students that happens to be literally neatly groomed/dressed, which for the programmer means no business suit. It’s just more useful to use the phrase neatly groomed/dressed than socially appropriate because for most things socially appropriate is neatly groomed/dressed.
Being socially appropriate is not overrated conditional on IQ – you have already established that the programmer (presumably your high IQ example) is aware of the dangers of coming in like a weirdo in a business suit to an interview. Why wouldn’t the younger version of this person also want to not look like a weirdo to their peers while in school?
I think you are talking about a more sophisticated version (“being socially appropriate”) and in the context of schools teaching kids its’ considerably more basic (e.g. for boys “get a short, neat haircut, no one will hire if you look like a hippy”).
It’s been a long time since I was in high school (disclosure: I barely passed many classes, and was not in competition for a prestigious university, though I did manage to get 20 AP credits and aced the math SAT), but I don’t recall that the version of “groomed and dressed” then was a particularly different requirement than my current employment as a principal engineer at a large tech company.
Showing up on time for appointments remains rather important. Behaving compatibly with a range of others likewise. Truly bad grooming is, in fact, a hindrance. Formal coiffure and sartorial prowess isn’t particularly helpful, but is less of a hindrance than aggressively-casual (stained sweats and flip-flops).
If it was “show up acceptably groomed and dressed, and with a base level of politeness in behavior to people around you”, would you be happier with the description?
I don’t dispute that being able to meet middle-class social norms of dress and grooming is helpful. What I said is that I think it’s overrated (conditional on high IQ). Looking like everyone else is useful but not that useful.