It strikes me as strange taking the words “The last enemy to be destroyed is death” as a family motto and manifesto, considering that it orginates from 1 Corinthians 15:26, concerning the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ’s second coming and the abolishment of death. While it is similiar to Harry’s goal, it certainly opposes it by way of means. Harry seeking the abolishment of death through mortal, albeit supernatural and magical, means opposes the divine plan of God. That Harry took this as a mission pasted down the Potter line generation to generation seems a lot more unlikely than it being a suitable epitaph on a gravestone.
The particular Bible passage was written in Greek a solid millennia before Hogwarts was built, it was available in Latin at least since the 4th century (Latin being the language of the educated post-Roman Empire, and the language which magic seems to be based off of), and, according to a quick Wikipedia search, translated into Old English by the Venerable Bede in the 7th century.
according to a quick Wikipedia search, translated into Old English by the Venerable Bede in the 7th century.
You may be thinking of the Gospel of John, which Bede translated shortly before his death. As far as I can tell, there was never an Old English translation of 1 Corinthians, and if there was it was not well-known.
I would be surprised to discover an Old English translation of any part of the Bible. The major theological movement to translate the Gospels into the vernacular (Lutherian Reformation) post-dates Old English by several centuries.
We can steelman my post to say we shouldn’t expect many translations given the theological positions, or we can believe TimS_yesterday failed reading comprehension.
I’m putting my probability mass on that latter. Sorry, thomblake.
It’s a fairly literal translation. I think the most likely option is that the Potter motto was first taken from the Bible in Latin, and at some point after the completion of the King James Bible (in the 1600s) the motto was updated to English.
The Peverells were, after all, contemporaries of Godric Gryffindor (at least in the HPMoR universe), so they would’ve been all over the Latin mottoes.
To be honest, I’ve just been getting this idea from things other people have said. But in canon (apparently according to the book Harry Potter Film Wizardry), Ignotus Peverell was born in 1214, and I’ve found no evidence that this is different in HPMoR.
Hogwarts, on the other hand, was founded over a thousand years ago according to the Harry Potter books, while in HPMoR it is repeatedly stated to be eight hundred years old.
think the most likely option is that the Potter motto was first taken from the Bible in Latin, and at some point after the completion of the King James Bible (in the 1600s) the motto was updated to English.
The motto is in Old English in the story, presumably dating from the time of the Peverells. It may have been taken from the bible verse, but then your own argument raises the question, why didn’t they write their motto in Latin?
Why would you think that? I assure you that Bible translators do NOT base their translations on popular fiction. In fact, I have to congratulate you on coming up with the most blasphemous idea I’ve ever heard.
King James version says, “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”
New International Version (first published in 1973) says, “The last enemy to be destroyed is death.”
You’re surely mistaken. The bible translators often brought in popular sayings and turns of phrase that seemed to fit. If there was a wizard motto with some currency that sounded like an appropriate translation when KJV was written, then I could totally see it being used in the bible, assuming there was any cross-pollination between wizards and christians at the time.
I don’t see why the christians using a wizard motto would be particularly blasphemous, let alone maximally so.
Wizards don’t seem to know much, nor care much, about Muggle religions. Having a reference to the Bible and Jesus Christ in a tomb of wizards strikes me as very unlikely.
The Potter family is descendant of one of the Peverell brothers, inheriting the Cloak of Invisibility, a Deathly Hallow from him. That makes “The last enemy to be destroyed is death” a more likely motto for the Potter family.
Wizards celebrate both Christmas and Easter. No idea why they would, but that is established in HPMoR and in canon. With the exception of Roger Bacon, we have not heard much of anything about religious witches or wizards, but it will strike me as strange the magical world has no religions, if only from the muggleborns and their descendants.
The quote “The last enemy to be destroyed is death” precedes the Peverell brothers by a solid millennia. While the Deathly Hallows is provides (weak) evidence in the other direction, even if it were a family motto, the origination is probably from the bible, as would be common from an old, heraldic family. Still, it is sounds like a suitable epitaph.
And of course, this presumes another deviation from canon, or to say a myth from canon, that the Peverell brothers created the Deathly Hallows, rather than receiving them from Death. Death, who exists in as a semi-sentient semi-being in HPMoR.
On a related note… What happened to the tattered cloak left by the Dementor in Chapter 45? May there be two True Cloaks of Invisibility?
What happened to the tattered cloak left by the Dementor in Chapter 45?
I thought those were ordinary cloaks, probably given to the Dementors by the Aurors, to make them look more… presentable. The cloaks are destroyed by the Dementors’ presence, as all matter is, and have to be replaced.
As far as Christmas and Easter goes, the first of these specifically has a non-religious explanation in HPMoR:
The atmosphere at Hogwarts before Yuletide was usually bright and cheerful. The Great Hall had already been decorated in green and red, after a Slytherin and a Gryffindor whose Yule wedding had become a symbol of friendship transcending Houses and allegiances, a tradition almost as ancient as Hogwarts itself and which had even spread to Muggle countries.
No similar explanation has been given for Easter, but I think it’s reasonable to suppose that one exists.
Christmas and Easter both borrow heavily from pre-Christian European traditions. Presumably those threads are carried over even more strongly than in muggle Europe.
Canon strongly implies that the original story was a dramatization of the story of the Peverells, who actually just made powerful artifacts, iirc. Also, dementor cloaks probably aren’t invisibility cloaks, since people and other dementors can see cloaked dementors.
It strikes me as strange taking the words “The last enemy to be destroyed is death” as a family motto and manifesto, considering that it orginates from 1 Corinthians 15:26, concerning the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ’s second coming and the abolishment of death. While it is similiar to Harry’s goal, it certainly opposes it by way of means. Harry seeking the abolishment of death through mortal, albeit supernatural and magical, means opposes the divine plan of God. That Harry took this as a mission pasted down the Potter line generation to generation seems a lot more unlikely than it being a suitable epitaph on a gravestone.
Given the timing, it seems more likely in-universe that the particular English translation of that bible passage was lifted from the wizard motto.
I am confused.
The particular Bible passage was written in Greek a solid millennia before Hogwarts was built, it was available in Latin at least since the 4th century (Latin being the language of the educated post-Roman Empire, and the language which magic seems to be based off of), and, according to a quick Wikipedia search, translated into Old English by the Venerable Bede in the 7th century.
You may be thinking of the Gospel of John, which Bede translated shortly before his death. As far as I can tell, there was never an Old English translation of 1 Corinthians, and if there was it was not well-known.
I would be surprised to discover an Old English translation of any part of the Bible. The major theological movement to translate the Gospels into the vernacular (Lutherian Reformation) post-dates Old English by several centuries.
Huh? thomblake just mentioned such a translation (though it’s incomplete), and it’s easy to verify on wiki or elsewhere.
We can steelman my post to say we shouldn’t expect many translations given the theological positions, or we can believe TimS_yesterday failed reading comprehension.
I’m putting my probability mass on that latter. Sorry, thomblake.
Well, the Vulgar Latin translation of the Bible was itself in the vernacular at the time it was translated.
Hence “the particular translation”.
EDIT: although, lets face it, the Bible verse probably came frist, and was then adopted by the Peverels.
It’s a fairly literal translation. I think the most likely option is that the Potter motto was first taken from the Bible in Latin, and at some point after the completion of the King James Bible (in the 1600s) the motto was updated to English.
The Peverells were, after all, contemporaries of Godric Gryffindor (at least in the HPMoR universe), so they would’ve been all over the Latin mottoes.
I was actually under the impression that the Perverells lived before Merlin.
To be honest, I’ve just been getting this idea from things other people have said. But in canon (apparently according to the book Harry Potter Film Wizardry), Ignotus Peverell was born in 1214, and I’ve found no evidence that this is different in HPMoR.
EDIT: Apparently it is different.
Hogwarts, on the other hand, was founded over a thousand years ago according to the Harry Potter books, while in HPMoR it is repeatedly stated to be eight hundred years old.
The motto is in Old English in the story, presumably dating from the time of the Peverells. It may have been taken from the bible verse, but then your own argument raises the question, why didn’t they write their motto in Latin?
The Old English is the prophecy, not the motto.
Right, I stand corrected.
Why would you think that? I assure you that Bible translators do NOT base their translations on popular fiction. In fact, I have to congratulate you on coming up with the most blasphemous idea I’ve ever heard.
King James version says, “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” New International Version (first published in 1973) says, “The last enemy to be destroyed is death.”
You’re surely mistaken. The bible translators often brought in popular sayings and turns of phrase that seemed to fit. If there was a wizard motto with some currency that sounded like an appropriate translation when KJV was written, then I could totally see it being used in the bible, assuming there was any cross-pollination between wizards and christians at the time.
I don’t see why the christians using a wizard motto would be particularly blasphemous, let alone maximally so.
It doesn’t seem that unlikely given two facts :
Wizards don’t seem to know much, nor care much, about Muggle religions. Having a reference to the Bible and Jesus Christ in a tomb of wizards strikes me as very unlikely.
The Potter family is descendant of one of the Peverell brothers, inheriting the Cloak of Invisibility, a Deathly Hallow from him. That makes “The last enemy to be destroyed is death” a more likely motto for the Potter family.
Wizards celebrate both Christmas and Easter. No idea why they would, but that is established in HPMoR and in canon. With the exception of Roger Bacon, we have not heard much of anything about religious witches or wizards, but it will strike me as strange the magical world has no religions, if only from the muggleborns and their descendants.
The quote “The last enemy to be destroyed is death” precedes the Peverell brothers by a solid millennia. While the Deathly Hallows is provides (weak) evidence in the other direction, even if it were a family motto, the origination is probably from the bible, as would be common from an old, heraldic family. Still, it is sounds like a suitable epitaph.
And of course, this presumes another deviation from canon, or to say a myth from canon, that the Peverell brothers created the Deathly Hallows, rather than receiving them from Death. Death, who exists in as a semi-sentient semi-being in HPMoR.
On a related note… What happened to the tattered cloak left by the Dementor in Chapter 45? May there be two True Cloaks of Invisibility?
I thought those were ordinary cloaks, probably given to the Dementors by the Aurors, to make them look more… presentable. The cloaks are destroyed by the Dementors’ presence, as all matter is, and have to be replaced.
As far as Christmas and Easter goes, the first of these specifically has a non-religious explanation in HPMoR:
No similar explanation has been given for Easter, but I think it’s reasonable to suppose that one exists.
I took that passage to indicate the tradition of green and red colors during Christmastide, not of the origination of any holiday,
Christmas and Easter both borrow heavily from pre-Christian European traditions. Presumably those threads are carried over even more strongly than in muggle Europe.
That does sounds like a solid theory as to why Wizards celebrate those holidays. I’ll update my beliefs with this new evidence.
Canon strongly implies that the original story was a dramatization of the story of the Peverells, who actually just made powerful artifacts, iirc. Also, dementor cloaks probably aren’t invisibility cloaks, since people and other dementors can see cloaked dementors.
Evidence, please?
Since Dementor cloaks don’t appear to keep Dementors invisible in any way, this seems a bit of a leap.
Evidence would be the existence of Dementors, which are personifications of death and may or may not be semi-sentient.