“Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.”
--George Santayana, Quoted by Carl Sagan in Contact, Chapter 14 “Harmonic Oscillator”, page 231
What, in this metaphor, corresponds to fidelity and happiness in the way that skepticism corresponds to chastity? Is Santayana’s idea that we should search long for The Answer, but having found it, we should turn off our skepticism, stop thinking, and sink into the warm fuzzies of faith? It reminds me of the sea squirt that eats its own brain when it has found a comfortable spot to live and no longer needs it.
Woah! Whole bunch of downvotes. Do you think the subject is inappropriate, the positioning is inappropriate, that my implicit assertion is incorrect? Something like that?
I’m not one of the downvoters (although I certainly wouldn’t upvote it), but it’s a hypothetical question that makes no sense to me. Whatever your implicit assertion was, it hasn’t come through to me. Why is this hypothetical person saving themselves for someone they’re incompatible with? How is this eventuality going to cause “sexual dysfunction”? Why is it interesting to imagine this happening?
The point of the question was to criticize the Santayana quote from the other direction—the sexual-politics position it uses to arrive at the skepticism position.
My understanding is that, often, this notion of chastity as a cardinal virtue causes people to marry people they’re sexually incompatible with (because they miss the highest-bandwidth way to check) and have unsatisfying sex lives, partly because late loss of virginity is linked to sexual dysfunctions (though I’m not sure that significant bidirectional causality is clear yet).
I was asserting that the sexual-politics position assumed in the top comment wasn’t obviously true or universally held here.
How is it a fetish and not a legitimate personal value? And the part relevant to skepticism seems totally off to me. We should never sacrifice skepticism for “fidelity” to an idea.
To reply in reverse order—I see how it’s relevant to skepticism because people are quick to believe any old thing that feels truthy to them. But there are some things you actually can put your trust in. Things that have been born out over centuries to get us closer and closer to true knowledge, things that produce real results. Things such as empiricism. You can eventually come to trust empiricism, rationality, the experimental method. You don’t have to remain forever entirely skeptical of everything. In that sense it’s a decent metaphor to compare it to a (good) long-term relationship—that building of trust by experience until it is simply natural and implicit.
I would consider it a fetish because it will make anyone out of their teens seek age-inappropriate partners. If you’re in your thirties or later and you are seeking sexual congress with a virgin then you are looking for someone with the sexual maturity of someone a lot younger than you, regardless of that person’s chronological age. Fetishes aren’t inherently bad of course, there’s lots of great ones out there. :) But this one often serves to either A) degrade non-teen women who aren’t emotionally stunted, or B) cause people to severely stunt their own emotional growth to fulfill some future partner’s fetish. Both of those seem to be bad things to me, and thus my disapproving words.
But he isn’t recommending preferring chastity in others, but rather being chaste ourselves until we have a “ripeness of instinct and discretion” (i.e. have attained maturity).
This definition of chastity includes not just virgins but everyone who shows discretion in choosing sex partners, and doesn’t accept the “first comer”.
I wouldn’t have any problem with the quote if that’s the case, discretion is good. However I’ve never seen chastity used in a way that didn’t mean virgin. Actually, come to think of it, the English language could really use a word for “discerning but liberated person”.
“Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.”
--George Santayana, Quoted by Carl Sagan in Contact, Chapter 14 “Harmonic Oscillator”, page 231
Ick.
What, in this metaphor, corresponds to fidelity and happiness in the way that skepticism corresponds to chastity? Is Santayana’s idea that we should search long for The Answer, but having found it, we should turn off our skepticism, stop thinking, and sink into the warm fuzzies of faith? It reminds me of the sea squirt that eats its own brain when it has found a comfortable spot to live and no longer needs it.
For that matter, what corresponds to sexual dysfunction due to ‘saving yourself’ for someone you’re incompatible with?
Woah! Whole bunch of downvotes. Do you think the subject is inappropriate, the positioning is inappropriate, that my implicit assertion is incorrect? Something like that?
I’m not one of the downvoters (although I certainly wouldn’t upvote it), but it’s a hypothetical question that makes no sense to me. Whatever your implicit assertion was, it hasn’t come through to me. Why is this hypothetical person saving themselves for someone they’re incompatible with? How is this eventuality going to cause “sexual dysfunction”? Why is it interesting to imagine this happening?
The point of the question was to criticize the Santayana quote from the other direction—the sexual-politics position it uses to arrive at the skepticism position.
My understanding is that, often, this notion of chastity as a cardinal virtue causes people to marry people they’re sexually incompatible with (because they miss the highest-bandwidth way to check) and have unsatisfying sex lives, partly because late loss of virginity is linked to sexual dysfunctions (though I’m not sure that significant bidirectional causality is clear yet).
I was asserting that the sexual-politics position assumed in the top comment wasn’t obviously true or universally held here.
Interestingly, I really like this quote about skepticism, even though I strongly dislike its fetishization of sexual inexperience.
How is it a fetish and not a legitimate personal value? And the part relevant to skepticism seems totally off to me. We should never sacrifice skepticism for “fidelity” to an idea.
To reply in reverse order—I see how it’s relevant to skepticism because people are quick to believe any old thing that feels truthy to them. But there are some things you actually can put your trust in. Things that have been born out over centuries to get us closer and closer to true knowledge, things that produce real results. Things such as empiricism. You can eventually come to trust empiricism, rationality, the experimental method. You don’t have to remain forever entirely skeptical of everything. In that sense it’s a decent metaphor to compare it to a (good) long-term relationship—that building of trust by experience until it is simply natural and implicit.
I would consider it a fetish because it will make anyone out of their teens seek age-inappropriate partners. If you’re in your thirties or later and you are seeking sexual congress with a virgin then you are looking for someone with the sexual maturity of someone a lot younger than you, regardless of that person’s chronological age. Fetishes aren’t inherently bad of course, there’s lots of great ones out there. :) But this one often serves to either A) degrade non-teen women who aren’t emotionally stunted, or B) cause people to severely stunt their own emotional growth to fulfill some future partner’s fetish. Both of those seem to be bad things to me, and thus my disapproving words.
But he isn’t recommending preferring chastity in others, but rather being chaste ourselves until we have a “ripeness of instinct and discretion” (i.e. have attained maturity).
This definition of chastity includes not just virgins but everyone who shows discretion in choosing sex partners, and doesn’t accept the “first comer”.
I wouldn’t have any problem with the quote if that’s the case, discretion is good. However I’ve never seen chastity used in a way that didn’t mean virgin. Actually, come to think of it, the English language could really use a word for “discerning but liberated person”.