Most social groups I’m part of would consider puking to be a serious failure of self control. Most of the male-dominated groups I’ve been in would view crying the same way. I think that one is really “know your audience”.
Unfortunately, I would argue that what you describe is a negative property of the groups you hang out with, and that your efforts would be better spent developing strategies for displaying tolerance when someone inevitably pukes or cries in order to start changing these group attitudes rather than … training your body to never puke or cry.
I would argue that what you describe is a negative property of the groups you hang out with
I wouldn’t disagree with you. That doesn’t mean it’s worth the effort to try and change their behavior, or to seek out new groups. I do have a “core” social group that is quite tolerant, and that works fine for me.
It is also nice having social spaces where crying is abnormal, since then there’s no pressure to engage in such displays. Thanks to an abusive father, crying in front of other people is extremely difficult, and I’ve only cried in public twice in my life. In other words, my body comes pre-trained to stoicism, and I’m still in the process of training myself to have the option to cry :)
Oh man, I kinda know that feeling. I’m so sorry you had to go through that.
I guess I agree that sometimes it isn’t worth trying to change the group’s behavior, but sometimes it’s not worth it to try really hard to avoid crying or puking either? Like, expending X amount of effort to avoid crying or puking isn’t worth it if you can use any Y < X effort telling the group to stop being jerks about it. And maybe repairing puke damage, etc. Mainly I’m just arguing that crying and puking shouldn’t be included in the “stay classy” heuristic and deserve their own cost-benefit analysis. Factoring them into that heuristic may lead to a lot of wasted effort and stress.
Also, sometimes puking happens for a really good reason! I once accidentally drank moldy water and I puked like 30 minutes after. =/ I was really impressed! I guess we’re more optimized for unpoisoning ourselves than for un-carpal-tunneling ourselves.
Mainly I’m just arguing that crying and puking shouldn’t be included in the “stay classy” heuristic and deserve their own cost-benefit analysis.
I wouldn’t refrain from puking if I needed to, since it generally means my body is unpoisoning itself, but I WANT to avoid situations where I need to (i.e. don’t go out if I have the flu, don’t do six shots on an empty stomach)
If it’s important to you to cry, find an audience that’s okay with it. I don’t see this as a special case—if you dislike suits, don’t hang around with people who consider jeans and a t-shirt to be insultingly under-dressed :)
The heuristic “never cry or puke” seems bad, but so does “assume there’s no social consequences to it”. I can’t think of a catchy way to put it, but I’d suggest that one should stay classy vis-a-vis the social group one is currently interacting with and, if that doesn’t meet your needs, either change the group or move to a new one. I think a lot of “failure stories” in life stem from getting stuck in a group that isn’t nurturing to what you want from yourself. It’s also important to remember you can have multiple group memberships, and be different people to each group. Not every group you’re in needs to meet your every need (at a minimum, this makes employment much more palatable :))
I think we’ve converged to the “know your audience” heuristic. Or maybe “stay classy, for a context-sensitive definition of classy.” Snappy phrases are hard. =]
I agree with being aware of social consequences, but I also feel like some social consequences are crappy and need to be changed. And sometimes there is value in speaking up even if it doesn’t directly change anyone’s mind. They can learn to not do crappy things around me, because I will cause social consequences for them. T_T
Generally, I wish it were more socially acceptable to listen to the person doing the weird thing. For example, it’s generally acceptable to make a big deal about a person who is crying. Even the groups that are tolerant to crying will respond with a flurry of fussiness even when the person is saying “please ignore me, I’m okay.” A lot of these things would be much easier if we could just cry or puke and count on everyone else to respond the way we tell them to respond. Because my post-crying, post-puking needs might be different than the next person’s. Bah!
Even the groups that are tolerant to crying will respond with a flurry of fussiness even when the person is saying “please ignore me, I’m okay.” A lot of these things would be much easier if we could just cry or puke and count on everyone else to respond the way we tell them to respond.
Very much agreed, and that’s a lot of what I strive for in my own behavior. I’ve found a few people pick up on it, too, which is always pleasing to see little ripples of change.
Most social groups I’m part of would consider puking to be a serious failure of self control. Most of the male-dominated groups I’ve been in would view crying the same way. I think that one is really “know your audience”.
Unfortunately, I would argue that what you describe is a negative property of the groups you hang out with, and that your efforts would be better spent developing strategies for displaying tolerance when someone inevitably pukes or cries in order to start changing these group attitudes rather than … training your body to never puke or cry.
I wouldn’t disagree with you. That doesn’t mean it’s worth the effort to try and change their behavior, or to seek out new groups. I do have a “core” social group that is quite tolerant, and that works fine for me.
It is also nice having social spaces where crying is abnormal, since then there’s no pressure to engage in such displays. Thanks to an abusive father, crying in front of other people is extremely difficult, and I’ve only cried in public twice in my life. In other words, my body comes pre-trained to stoicism, and I’m still in the process of training myself to have the option to cry :)
Oh man, I kinda know that feeling. I’m so sorry you had to go through that.
I guess I agree that sometimes it isn’t worth trying to change the group’s behavior, but sometimes it’s not worth it to try really hard to avoid crying or puking either? Like, expending X amount of effort to avoid crying or puking isn’t worth it if you can use any Y < X effort telling the group to stop being jerks about it. And maybe repairing puke damage, etc. Mainly I’m just arguing that crying and puking shouldn’t be included in the “stay classy” heuristic and deserve their own cost-benefit analysis. Factoring them into that heuristic may lead to a lot of wasted effort and stress.
Also, sometimes puking happens for a really good reason! I once accidentally drank moldy water and I puked like 30 minutes after. =/ I was really impressed! I guess we’re more optimized for unpoisoning ourselves than for un-carpal-tunneling ourselves.
I wouldn’t refrain from puking if I needed to, since it generally means my body is unpoisoning itself, but I WANT to avoid situations where I need to (i.e. don’t go out if I have the flu, don’t do six shots on an empty stomach)
If it’s important to you to cry, find an audience that’s okay with it. I don’t see this as a special case—if you dislike suits, don’t hang around with people who consider jeans and a t-shirt to be insultingly under-dressed :)
The heuristic “never cry or puke” seems bad, but so does “assume there’s no social consequences to it”. I can’t think of a catchy way to put it, but I’d suggest that one should stay classy vis-a-vis the social group one is currently interacting with and, if that doesn’t meet your needs, either change the group or move to a new one. I think a lot of “failure stories” in life stem from getting stuck in a group that isn’t nurturing to what you want from yourself. It’s also important to remember you can have multiple group memberships, and be different people to each group. Not every group you’re in needs to meet your every need (at a minimum, this makes employment much more palatable :))
I think we’ve converged to the “know your audience” heuristic. Or maybe “stay classy, for a context-sensitive definition of classy.” Snappy phrases are hard. =]
I agree with being aware of social consequences, but I also feel like some social consequences are crappy and need to be changed. And sometimes there is value in speaking up even if it doesn’t directly change anyone’s mind. They can learn to not do crappy things around me, because I will cause social consequences for them. T_T
Generally, I wish it were more socially acceptable to listen to the person doing the weird thing. For example, it’s generally acceptable to make a big deal about a person who is crying. Even the groups that are tolerant to crying will respond with a flurry of fussiness even when the person is saying “please ignore me, I’m okay.” A lot of these things would be much easier if we could just cry or puke and count on everyone else to respond the way we tell them to respond. Because my post-crying, post-puking needs might be different than the next person’s. Bah!
Very much agreed, and that’s a lot of what I strive for in my own behavior. I’ve found a few people pick up on it, too, which is always pleasing to see little ripples of change.