because they want you to believe it is true (regardless of whether it is)
to fit in with their friends (who cares about this “truth” thing anyway? I am not a nerd)
dunno, people simply say these words in situations like this one, it doesn’t mean anything
Without this concept, it may seem that lying is the opposite of telling the truth.
With this concept, you see that the truth-tellers and the liars are more similar to each other than they are different. For example, both care about the underlying reality (whether to confirm it, or to deny it). As opposed to people who do not care about reality at all; who merely repeat the words that get socially rewarded, and who might as well talk in a foreign language they do not understand.
But in what sense are they levels? When I think of levels I think of things that are kinda building on top of one another. But this just seems like four separate reasons. Maybe they’re not actually levels?
With this concept, you see that the truth-tellers and the liars are more similar to each other than they are different.
That feels like a stretch. Yes, in order to lie you have to know what the underlying truth actually is, but it still feels to me like there’s a big and important difference between liars and truth tellers. I guess it’s hard to talk about in general though, it kinda depends on the situation.
Another question: was that last paragraph the sort of elevator pitch for why simulcra are cool/important? If not, would you mind taking a stab at it?
Disclaimer: I am trying to explain the system that someone else invented, to the degree I seem to understand it. I certainly could not reinvent the system.
That said, it seems to me useful to distinguish between people who know the factual truth and are lying about it, from people who see reality as just some kind of “social consensus”, from people who are merely mechanically saying the words without attaching any meaning of it.
Why levels rather than parallel things? It seems like there is a progression on how detached from reality one is. The liar accepts that objective reality exists, he is just lying about it. The social guy has a map of reality, he just doesn’t care whether it matches the territory, only whether his group approves of it. The populist politician probably doesn’t even have a coherent map, it’s just individual statements.
Can all statements be classified as one of the 4 levels, or are more options needed? It’s not my system; if I tried to reinvent it, I might distinguish between the “level 3” people who have one permanent identity (one social consensus they believe), and those who flexibly switch between multiple identities (believing in different social realities in different situations). The latter is still different from having no model at all, such as saying things that contradict each other (to the same audience) just because each statement separately sounds good.
Basically, I treat it as a fake framework, like Enneagram or MBTI. In some situations, it allows me to express complex ideas shortly. (“She is extraverted” = do not expect her to sit quietly and read books, when she has an opportunity to socialize instead. “He made a level-3 statement” = he just signalled his group membership, do not expect him to care whether his statements are technically true.) I am not trying to shoehorn all situations into the model. I actually rarely use this model at all—for me it is in the “insight porn” category (interesting to discuss, not really used for anything important).
How consistent are people at using specific levels? If I saw someone make a level X statement, should I expect their other statements to also be on the same level? On one hand, caring about reality vs not caring about reality, or having a coherent model vs just saying random words, seems like a preference / personality trait that I would expect to manifest in other situations too. On the other hand, there is a difference between near mode and far mode. I don’t know. Some people may be more flexible between the levels, others less so. Probably high risk of fundamental attribution error here—it can be easy to assume that someone used level 3 or level 4 because they are “that kind of person”, while they only used that level in given situation instrumentally (as in “if I do not care about something, I simply make level 3⁄4 statements”).
Yeah. I like the way antanaclasis phrased it as “how much of a change you would have to make to the mindset of a person at each level to get them to level 1”. And I think it’s important to point out that it’s just their current mindset. It’s not like saying “hey, words actually correspond to object-level reality” to a person who made a level three statement would be a new idea to them.
That said, it seems to me useful to distinguish between people who know the factual truth and are lying about it, from people who see reality as just some kind of “social consensus”, from people who are merely mechanically saying the words without attaching any meaning of it.
...
Basically, I treat it as a fake framework, like Enneagram or MBTI. In some situations, it allows me to express complex ideas shortly. (“She is extraverted” = do not expect her to sit quietly and read books, when she has an opportunity to socialize instead. “He made a level-3 statement” = he just signalled his group membership, do not expect him to care whether his statements are technically true.) I am not trying to shoehorn all situations into the model. I actually rarely use this model at all—for me it is in the “insight porn” category (interesting to discuss, not really used for anything important).
Ok this all makes sense to me. I feel basically exactly the same. Thank you. I feel satisfied about my understanding of simulacra levels now.
How consistent are people at using specific levels?
In terms of similarity between telling the truth and lying, think about how much of a change you would have to make to the mindset of a person at each level to get them to level 1 (truth)
Level 2: they’re already thinking about world models, you just need to get them cooperate with you in seeking the truth rather than trying to manipulate you.
Level 3: you need to get them the idea of words as having some sort of correspondence with the actual world, rather than just as floating tribal signifiers. After doing that, you still have to make sure that they are focusing on the truth of those words, like the level 2 case.
Level 4: the hardest of them all; you need to get them the idea of words having any sort of meaning in the first place, rather than just being certain patterns of mouth movements that one does when it feels like the right time to do so. After doing that, you again still have the whole problem of making sure that they focus on truth instead of manipulation or tribal identity.
If the important thing about higher levels is not tracking the underlying reality, why not define the category in terms of that rather than a specific motive (fitting in with friends) which sometimes leads to not tracking reality?
People say & do lots of things to fit in, some of which involve saying true things (while tracking that they match reality) and some of which don’t have propositional content (e.g. “Yay X” or “Boo X”). And there are various reasons for people to say nonsense, besides trying to fit in.
Simulacra are 4 reasons why people say something:
because (they believe) it is true
because they want you to believe it is true (regardless of whether it is)
to fit in with their friends (who cares about this “truth” thing anyway? I am not a nerd)
dunno, people simply say these words in situations like this one, it doesn’t mean anything
Without this concept, it may seem that lying is the opposite of telling the truth.
With this concept, you see that the truth-tellers and the liars are more similar to each other than they are different. For example, both care about the underlying reality (whether to confirm it, or to deny it). As opposed to people who do not care about reality at all; who merely repeat the words that get socially rewarded, and who might as well talk in a foreign language they do not understand.
Hm, that’s straightforward enough. Thanks.
But in what sense are they levels? When I think of levels I think of things that are kinda building on top of one another. But this just seems like four separate reasons. Maybe they’re not actually levels?
That feels like a stretch. Yes, in order to lie you have to know what the underlying truth actually is, but it still feels to me like there’s a big and important difference between liars and truth tellers. I guess it’s hard to talk about in general though, it kinda depends on the situation.
Another question: was that last paragraph the sort of elevator pitch for why simulcra are cool/important? If not, would you mind taking a stab at it?
Disclaimer: I am trying to explain the system that someone else invented, to the degree I seem to understand it. I certainly could not reinvent the system.
That said, it seems to me useful to distinguish between people who know the factual truth and are lying about it, from people who see reality as just some kind of “social consensus”, from people who are merely mechanically saying the words without attaching any meaning of it.
Why levels rather than parallel things? It seems like there is a progression on how detached from reality one is. The liar accepts that objective reality exists, he is just lying about it. The social guy has a map of reality, he just doesn’t care whether it matches the territory, only whether his group approves of it. The populist politician probably doesn’t even have a coherent map, it’s just individual statements.
Can all statements be classified as one of the 4 levels, or are more options needed? It’s not my system; if I tried to reinvent it, I might distinguish between the “level 3” people who have one permanent identity (one social consensus they believe), and those who flexibly switch between multiple identities (believing in different social realities in different situations). The latter is still different from having no model at all, such as saying things that contradict each other (to the same audience) just because each statement separately sounds good.
Basically, I treat it as a fake framework, like Enneagram or MBTI. In some situations, it allows me to express complex ideas shortly. (“She is extraverted” = do not expect her to sit quietly and read books, when she has an opportunity to socialize instead. “He made a level-3 statement” = he just signalled his group membership, do not expect him to care whether his statements are technically true.) I am not trying to shoehorn all situations into the model. I actually rarely use this model at all—for me it is in the “insight porn” category (interesting to discuss, not really used for anything important).
How consistent are people at using specific levels? If I saw someone make a level X statement, should I expect their other statements to also be on the same level? On one hand, caring about reality vs not caring about reality, or having a coherent model vs just saying random words, seems like a preference / personality trait that I would expect to manifest in other situations too. On the other hand, there is a difference between near mode and far mode. I don’t know. Some people may be more flexible between the levels, others less so. Probably high risk of fundamental attribution error here—it can be easy to assume that someone used level 3 or level 4 because they are “that kind of person”, while they only used that level in given situation instrumentally (as in “if I do not care about something, I simply make level 3⁄4 statements”).
Yeah. I like the way antanaclasis phrased it as “how much of a change you would have to make to the mindset of a person at each level to get them to level 1”. And I think it’s important to point out that it’s just their current mindset. It’s not like saying “hey, words actually correspond to object-level reality” to a person who made a level three statement would be a new idea to them.
Ok this all makes sense to me. I feel basically exactly the same. Thank you. I feel satisfied about my understanding of simulacra levels now.
Yeah I agree with this as well.
In terms of similarity between telling the truth and lying, think about how much of a change you would have to make to the mindset of a person at each level to get them to level 1 (truth)
Level 2: they’re already thinking about world models, you just need to get them cooperate with you in seeking the truth rather than trying to manipulate you.
Level 3: you need to get them the idea of words as having some sort of correspondence with the actual world, rather than just as floating tribal signifiers. After doing that, you still have to make sure that they are focusing on the truth of those words, like the level 2 case.
Level 4: the hardest of them all; you need to get them the idea of words having any sort of meaning in the first place, rather than just being certain patterns of mouth movements that one does when it feels like the right time to do so. After doing that, you again still have the whole problem of making sure that they focus on truth instead of manipulation or tribal identity.
For a more detailed treatment of this, see Zvi’s https://thezvi.wordpress.com/2020/09/07/the-four-children-of-the-seder-as-the-simulacra-levels/
Ah I see. Thanks for explaining.
If the important thing about higher levels is not tracking the underlying reality, why not define the category in terms of that rather than a specific motive (fitting in with friends) which sometimes leads to not tracking reality?
People say & do lots of things to fit in, some of which involve saying true things (while tracking that they match reality) and some of which don’t have propositional content (e.g. “Yay X” or “Boo X”). And there are various reasons for people to say nonsense, besides trying to fit in.