The way I see it, there appear to be enough contradictions and ambiguities in the Bible and associated fan work that it’s possible to use it to justify almost anything. (Including slavery.) So it’s hard to tell a priori what’s un-Christian and what isn’t.
Against a Biblical literalist, this would probably be a pretty good attack—if you think a plausible implication of a single verse in the Bible, taken out of context, is an absolute moral justification for a proposed action, then, yes, you can justify pretty much any behavior.
However, this does not seem to be the thrust of AspiringKnitter’s point, nor, even if it were, should we be content to argue against such a rhetorically weak position.
Rather, I think AspiringKnitter is arguing that certain emotions, attitudes, dispositions, etc. are repeated often enough and forcefully enough in the Bible so as to carve out an identifiable cluster in thing-space. A kind, gentle, equalitarian pacifist is (among other things) acting more consistently with the teachings of the literary character of Jesus than a judgmental, aggressive, elitist warrior. Assessing whether someone is acting consistently with the literary character of Jesus’s teachings is an inherently subjective enterprise, but that doesn’t mean that all opinions on the subject are equally valid—there is some content there.
Rather, I think AspiringKnitter is arguing that certain emotions, attitudes, dispositions, etc. are repeated often enough and forcefully enough in the Bible so as to carve out an identifiable cluster in thing-space. A kind, gentle, equalitarian pacifist is (among other things) acting more consistently with the teachings of the literary character of Jesus than a judgmental, aggressive, elitist warrior. Assessing whether someone is acting consistently with the literary character of Jesus’s teachings is an inherently subjective enterprise, but that doesn’t mean that all opinions on the subject are equally valid—there is some content there.
You have a good point there.
Then again, there are plenty of times that Jesus says things to the effect of “Repent sinners, because the end is coming, and God and I are gonna kick your ass if you don’t!”
That is Jesus in half his moods speaking that way. But there’s another Jesus in there. There’s a Jesus who’s just paradoxical and difficult to interpret, a Jesus who tells people to hate their parents. And then there is the Jesus — while he may not be as plausible given how we want to think about Jesus — but he’s there in scripture, coming back amid a host of angels, destined to deal out justice to the sinners of the world. That is the Jesus that fully half of the American electorate is most enamored of at this moment.
The way I see it, there appear to be enough contradictions and ambiguities in the Bible and associated fan work that it’s possible to use it to justify almost anything.
Sacrifice other people’s wives to the devil. That’s almost certainly out.
(Including slavery.)
Yes, that’s a significant moral absurdity to us but no a big deal to the cultures who created the religion or to the texts themselves. (Fairly ambivalent—mostly just supports following whatever is the status quo on the subject.)
So it’s hard to tell a priori what’s un-Christian and what isn’t.
No, it’s really not. There is plenty of grey but there are a whole lot of clear cut rules too. Murdering. Stealing. Grabbing guys by the testicles when they are fighting. All sorts of things.
Your comment seems to be about a general trend and doesn’t rest on slavery itself, correct?
Because if not, I just want to point out that the Bible never says “slavery is good”. It regulates it, ensuring minimal rights for slaves, and assumes it will happen, which is kind of like the rationale behind legalizing drugs. Slaves are commanded in the New Testament to obey their masters, which those telling them to do so explain as being so that the faith doesn’t get a bad reputation. The only time anyone’s told to practice slavery is as punishment for a crime, which is surely no worse than incarceration. At least you’re getting some extra work done.
I assume this doesn’t change your mind because you have other examples in mind?
One thing that struck me about the Bible when I first read it was that Jesus never flat-out said, “look guys, owning people is wrong, don’t do it”. Instead, he (as you pointed out) treats slavery as a basic fact of life, sort of like breathing or language or agriculture. There are a lot of parables in the New Testament which use slavery as a plot device, or as an analogy to illustrate a point, but none that imagine a world without it.
Contrast this to the modern world we live in. To most of us, slavery is almost unthinkable, and we condemn it whenever we see it. As imperfect as we are, we’ve come a long way in the past 2000 years—all of us, even Christians. That’s something to be proud of, IMO.
… I just want to point out that the Bible never says “slavery is good”. It regulates it, ensuring minimal rights for slaves, and assumes it will happen, which is kind of like the rationale behind legalizing drugs.
Hrm, I support legalizing-and-regulating (at least some) drugs and am not in favor of legalizing-and-regulating slavery. I just thought about it for 5 minutes and I still really don’t think they are analogous.
Deciding factor: sane, controlled drug use does not harm anyone (with the possible exception of the user, but they do so willingly). “sane, controlled” slavery would still harm someone against their will (with the exception of voluntary BDSM type relationships, but I’m pretty sure that’s not what we’re talking about).
Haha, I did think of that before making my last comment :)
Answer: in cases where said people are likely to harm others, yes. IMO, society gains more utilons from incarcerating them than the individuals lose from being incarcerated. Otherwise, I’d much rather see more constructive forms of punishment.
OK. So, consider a proposal to force prisoners to perform involuntary labor, in such a way that society gains more utilons from that labor than the individuals lose from being forced to perform it.
Would you support that proposal? Would you label that proposal “slavery”? If not (to either or both), why not?
It would probably depend on the specific proposal. I’d lean more towards “no” the more involuntary and demeaning the task. (I’m not certain my values are consistent here; I haven’t put huge amounts of thought into it.)
Would you label that proposal “slavery”?
Not in the sense I thought we were talking about, which (at least in my mind) included the concept of one individual “owning” another. In a more general sense, I guess yes.
Well, for my own part I would consider a system of involuntary forced labor as good an example of slavery as I can think of… to be told “yes, you have to work at what I tell you to work at, and you have no choice in the matter, but at least I don’t own you” would be bewildering.
That said, I don’t care about the semantics very much. But if the deciding factor in your opposition to legalizing and regulating slavery is that slavery harms someone against their will, then it seems strange to me that who owns whom is relevant here. Is ownership in and of itself a form of harm?
Tabooing “slavery”: “You committed crimes and society has deemed that you will perform task X for Y years as a repayment” seems significantly different (to me) from “You were kidnapped from country Z, sold to plantation owner W and must perform task X for the rest of your life”. I can see arguments for and against the former, but the latter is just plain evil.
This actually understates the degree of difference. Chattel slavery isn’t simply about involuntary labor. It also involves, for example, lacking the autonomy to marry without the consent of one’s master, the arbitrary separation of families and the selling of slaves’ children, etc.
Sure, I agree. But unless the latter is what’s being referred to Biblically, we do seem to have shifted the topic of conversation somewhere along the line.
It’s been awhile since I read it last, but IIRC, the laws regarding slavery in the OT cover individuals captured in a war as well as those sold into slavery to pay a debt.
The only time anyone’s told to practice slavery is as punishment for a crime, which is surely no worse than incarceration. At least you’re getting some extra work done.
In fact, often taking slaves is outright sinful. (Because you’re supposed to genocide them instead! :P)
The way I see it, there appear to be enough contradictions and ambiguities in the Bible and associated fan work that it’s possible to use it to justify almost anything. (Including slavery.) So it’s hard to tell a priori what’s un-Christian and what isn’t.
Against a Biblical literalist, this would probably be a pretty good attack—if you think a plausible implication of a single verse in the Bible, taken out of context, is an absolute moral justification for a proposed action, then, yes, you can justify pretty much any behavior.
However, this does not seem to be the thrust of AspiringKnitter’s point, nor, even if it were, should we be content to argue against such a rhetorically weak position.
Rather, I think AspiringKnitter is arguing that certain emotions, attitudes, dispositions, etc. are repeated often enough and forcefully enough in the Bible so as to carve out an identifiable cluster in thing-space. A kind, gentle, equalitarian pacifist is (among other things) acting more consistently with the teachings of the literary character of Jesus than a judgmental, aggressive, elitist warrior. Assessing whether someone is acting consistently with the literary character of Jesus’s teachings is an inherently subjective enterprise, but that doesn’t mean that all opinions on the subject are equally valid—there is some content there.
You have a good point there.
Then again, there are plenty of times that Jesus says things to the effect of “Repent sinners, because the end is coming, and God and I are gonna kick your ass if you don’t!”
-- Sam Harris
Sacrifice other people’s wives to the devil. That’s almost certainly out.
Yes, that’s a significant moral absurdity to us but no a big deal to the cultures who created the religion or to the texts themselves. (Fairly ambivalent—mostly just supports following whatever is the status quo on the subject.)
No, it’s really not. There is plenty of grey but there are a whole lot of clear cut rules too. Murdering. Stealing. Grabbing guys by the testicles when they are fighting. All sorts of things.
Your comment seems to be about a general trend and doesn’t rest on slavery itself, correct?
Because if not, I just want to point out that the Bible never says “slavery is good”. It regulates it, ensuring minimal rights for slaves, and assumes it will happen, which is kind of like the rationale behind legalizing drugs. Slaves are commanded in the New Testament to obey their masters, which those telling them to do so explain as being so that the faith doesn’t get a bad reputation. The only time anyone’s told to practice slavery is as punishment for a crime, which is surely no worse than incarceration. At least you’re getting some extra work done.
I assume this doesn’t change your mind because you have other examples in mind?
One thing that struck me about the Bible when I first read it was that Jesus never flat-out said, “look guys, owning people is wrong, don’t do it”. Instead, he (as you pointed out) treats slavery as a basic fact of life, sort of like breathing or language or agriculture. There are a lot of parables in the New Testament which use slavery as a plot device, or as an analogy to illustrate a point, but none that imagine a world without it.
Contrast this to the modern world we live in. To most of us, slavery is almost unthinkable, and we condemn it whenever we see it. As imperfect as we are, we’ve come a long way in the past 2000 years—all of us, even Christians. That’s something to be proud of, IMO.
Hrm, I support legalizing-and-regulating (at least some) drugs and am not in favor of legalizing-and-regulating slavery. I just thought about it for 5 minutes and I still really don’t think they are analogous.
Deciding factor: sane, controlled drug use does not harm anyone (with the possible exception of the user, but they do so willingly). “sane, controlled” slavery would still harm someone against their will (with the exception of voluntary BDSM type relationships, but I’m pretty sure that’s not what we’re talking about).
Do you support legalizing and regulating the imprisonment of people against their will?
Haha, I did think of that before making my last comment :)
Answer: in cases where said people are likely to harm others, yes. IMO, society gains more utilons from incarcerating them than the individuals lose from being incarcerated. Otherwise, I’d much rather see more constructive forms of punishment.
OK. So, consider a proposal to force prisoners to perform involuntary labor, in such a way that society gains more utilons from that labor than the individuals lose from being forced to perform it.
Would you support that proposal?
Would you label that proposal “slavery”?
If not (to either or both), why not?
It would probably depend on the specific proposal. I’d lean more towards “no” the more involuntary and demeaning the task. (I’m not certain my values are consistent here; I haven’t put huge amounts of thought into it.)
Not in the sense I thought we were talking about, which (at least in my mind) included the concept of one individual “owning” another. In a more general sense, I guess yes.
Well, for my own part I would consider a system of involuntary forced labor as good an example of slavery as I can think of… to be told “yes, you have to work at what I tell you to work at, and you have no choice in the matter, but at least I don’t own you” would be bewildering.
That said, I don’t care about the semantics very much. But if the deciding factor in your opposition to legalizing and regulating slavery is that slavery harms someone against their will, then it seems strange to me that who owns whom is relevant here. Is ownership in and of itself a form of harm?
Tabooing “slavery”: “You committed crimes and society has deemed that you will perform task X for Y years as a repayment” seems significantly different (to me) from “You were kidnapped from country Z, sold to plantation owner W and must perform task X for the rest of your life”. I can see arguments for and against the former, but the latter is just plain evil.
This actually understates the degree of difference. Chattel slavery isn’t simply about involuntary labor. It also involves, for example, lacking the autonomy to marry without the consent of one’s master, the arbitrary separation of families and the selling of slaves’ children, etc.
Sure, I agree. But unless the latter is what’s being referred to Biblically, we do seem to have shifted the topic of conversation somewhere along the line.
It’s been awhile since I read it last, but IIRC, the laws regarding slavery in the OT cover individuals captured in a war as well as those sold into slavery to pay a debt.
That’s consistent with my recollection as well.
Does each and every feature of slavery need to contribute to it’s awfulness?
Certainly not.
In fact, often taking slaves is outright sinful. (Because you’re supposed to genocide them instead! :P)
That’s certainly the Old Testament position (i.e. the Amalekites). But I don’t that it’s fair to say that is an inherent part of Christian thought.
I don’t think “take slaves as punishment” is inherent Christian thought either.