I also had a weird reaction to your post, like emr and someonewrongonthenet. Personally, I feel that it’s healthy to work as an assistant to someone (and stop thinking about work when you leave the office at 6pm), but it’s unhealthy to be the assistant of someone (and treat them as a fantasy hero 24⁄7 and possibly sleep with them). Yay professionalism and work/life balance, boo medieval loyalties and imagined life narratives!
That’s also the advice I often give to programmers, to think of themselves as working for a company (in exchange for money) rather than at a company (as part of a common cause). That advice makes some stressful situations and conflicts just magically disappear.
You could say that a world of inherently equal professionals exchanging services, without PCs or NPCs, is too barren to many people. Some people actually want to feel like heroes, and others want to feel like sidekicks. Who am I to deny them that roleplay? Well, some people also want to fit in the “warrior” role, being fiercely loyal to their group and attacking outsiders. We have all kinds of ancient tribal instincts, which are amplified by reading fantasy and bad (hero-based) sci-fi. I feel that such instincts are usually harmful in the long run, although they seem to make sense in the moment.
Personally, I feel that it’s healthy to work as an assistant to someone (and stop thinking about work when you leave the office at 6pm), but it’s unhealthy to be the assistant of someone (and treat them as a fantasy hero 24⁄7 and possibly sleep with them).
I think this is exactly what Brienne is talking about when she points out that society doesn’t look kindly on people who want to serve others. And… I think maybe you’re pointing at something real. It does seem possible that when “being” an assistant breaks, it breaks harder than when “working as” an assistant breaks. So it’s a higher-stakes situation to put yourself in. (Both for the leader and for their assistant).
I don’t think that negates any of what I said in the post though. Half of my point is basically just “some people are the kind of people who want to be nurses, no, really.” Like, it seems to be really hard for people who aren’t those kind of people to understand that for me, roles that aren’t especially high-status but involve being really useful to other people hit all of my happiness buttons. That people are actually different and that their dream job might be one I’d hate, and vice versa.
The other part probably only makes sense when aimed at people who have taken the concept of “heroes” on board...which large portions of this community have. And that point is mainly: if you’re going to accept that heroes and people who want to be heroes are a thing, you’ve got to have the concept of sidekicks too, otherwise you have a broken unhealthy community. It sounds like you’re arguing that it’s best not to take either concept on board. Maybe. You can argue that point.
That’s also the advice I often give to programmers, to think of themselves as working for a company (in exchange for money) rather than at a company (as part of a common cause).
I’m not sure I have that switch? I’ve developed strong feelings of loyalty towards every job I’ve had. As a nurse, this loyalty is felt only a little bit towards the hospital where I work; I feel more of it for my immediate colleagues, and the rest of it towards some abstract “Profession of Nursing.” I’m not sure how to stop feeling that way, or honestly why I’d want to stop.
We have all kinds of ancient tribal instincts, which are amplified by reading fantasy and bad (hero-based) sci-fi. I feel that such instincts are usually harmful in the long run, although they seem to make sense in the moment.
This comes across a little bit as saying “hey, don’t have emotions!” Which...yeah, maybe emotions cause a lot of problems, but not having them isn’t an option. And I’m not sure that not having narratives is an option either. It seems to me that I’m going to think of my life as a narrative in any case; I might as well try to understand and analyze and shape it. (Just as I shape my emotions, trying to lean away from the emotions that seem net-negative...but the way to do that is to guide yourself towards different emotions.)
I’m not sure why we’re focusing in on narratives here, but I suspect it’s for not very good reasons. Whether it’s good for some people to “think of themselves as sidekicks” seems less important than whether it’s good for people to actually perform the actions of a “sidekick”. We can talk about how to promote or discourage the set of actions once that’s settled. I’d much rather present a breakdown of what I actually do day to day and why, and then have people point out what precisely it is that I’m doing wrong.
I’m not sure how to stop feeling that way, or honestly why I’d want to stop.
Well, one reason is to avoid driving down wages and worsening working conditions for yourself and everyone else in your profession. It’s not a coincidence that the jobs that people feel “passionate” about are the jobs where it’s hardest to make a living, like writing or music. I wrote a post about that.
It sounds like you’re arguing that it’s best not to take either concept on board.
Yeah, pretty much. The whole PC vs NPC idea feels slightly distasteful to me.
That’s also the advice I often give to programmers, to think of themselves as working for a company (in exchange for money) rather than at a company (as part of a common cause). That advice makes some stressful situations and conflicts just magically disappear.
I hope you wouldn’t give this advice to cofounders or early employees with an ownership stake, though, and that may be a better lens for viewing these sorts of relationships.
So, I think that a sidekick can feel some ownership over what their hero does, and that feeling that will make them a better sidekick (in part, because they will be less likely to stop thinking about it at 6 pm).
I’m also having a hard time disentangling this in my mind from thoughts about households: in some sense, couples cofound a household together, and it seems counter-productive to think about that in solely mercenary terms, or to ‘clock out’ of your household.
I think I also find myself unhappy with what might be reflexive egalitarianism that is unhappy with unequal splits of decision-making power or status or so on. It’s okay to be unseen; it’s okay to be a junior partner; it’s okay to be a servant. A lot of talk about ‘purpose’ emphasizes having ‘something bigger than yourself,’ and it seems to me that finding purpose in the people around you is something worth applauding.
That’s also the advice I often give to programmers, to think of themselves as working for a company (in exchange for money) rather than at a company (as part of a common cause). That advice makes some stressful situations and conflicts just magically disappear.
It is also a great way to avoid receiving job offers. “Your company is my cause” is one of the socially-necessitated blatant lies of our age.
I am from Britain and I can say with experience that working for a company in exchange for money is not an effective way to avoid 24⁄7 sleep with the hero situations. I know quite a few people who have a poor work life balance because they are working for a company and have more stressful situations and conflicts. I’ve seen people work themselves to depression, divorce, and death thanks to my involvement with the very toxic British banking culture.
Your avoidance of such things dependends on the independent variable of how assertive you are at managing your work/life balance and how good your goal setting is. It’s quite easy to overwork yourself for money. Wanting to be a sidekick or a hero or a equal professional doesn’t increase or decrease your skill at maintaining a work life balance or your goal setting skills any more than it increases your physical strength or intellect.
Banking has that reputation in America too. I would hazard a guess that the problem is banking, not Britain (I used to work in finance, though not in banking specifically).
I also had a weird reaction to your post, like emr and someonewrongonthenet. Personally, I feel that it’s healthy to work as an assistant to someone (and stop thinking about work when you leave the office at 6pm), but it’s unhealthy to be the assistant of someone (and treat them as a fantasy hero 24⁄7 and possibly sleep with them). Yay professionalism and work/life balance, boo medieval loyalties and imagined life narratives!
That’s also the advice I often give to programmers, to think of themselves as working for a company (in exchange for money) rather than at a company (as part of a common cause). That advice makes some stressful situations and conflicts just magically disappear.
You could say that a world of inherently equal professionals exchanging services, without PCs or NPCs, is too barren to many people. Some people actually want to feel like heroes, and others want to feel like sidekicks. Who am I to deny them that roleplay? Well, some people also want to fit in the “warrior” role, being fiercely loyal to their group and attacking outsiders. We have all kinds of ancient tribal instincts, which are amplified by reading fantasy and bad (hero-based) sci-fi. I feel that such instincts are usually harmful in the long run, although they seem to make sense in the moment.
I think this is exactly what Brienne is talking about when she points out that society doesn’t look kindly on people who want to serve others. And… I think maybe you’re pointing at something real. It does seem possible that when “being” an assistant breaks, it breaks harder than when “working as” an assistant breaks. So it’s a higher-stakes situation to put yourself in. (Both for the leader and for their assistant).
I don’t think that negates any of what I said in the post though. Half of my point is basically just “some people are the kind of people who want to be nurses, no, really.” Like, it seems to be really hard for people who aren’t those kind of people to understand that for me, roles that aren’t especially high-status but involve being really useful to other people hit all of my happiness buttons. That people are actually different and that their dream job might be one I’d hate, and vice versa.
The other part probably only makes sense when aimed at people who have taken the concept of “heroes” on board...which large portions of this community have. And that point is mainly: if you’re going to accept that heroes and people who want to be heroes are a thing, you’ve got to have the concept of sidekicks too, otherwise you have a broken unhealthy community. It sounds like you’re arguing that it’s best not to take either concept on board. Maybe. You can argue that point.
I’m not sure I have that switch? I’ve developed strong feelings of loyalty towards every job I’ve had. As a nurse, this loyalty is felt only a little bit towards the hospital where I work; I feel more of it for my immediate colleagues, and the rest of it towards some abstract “Profession of Nursing.” I’m not sure how to stop feeling that way, or honestly why I’d want to stop.
This comes across a little bit as saying “hey, don’t have emotions!” Which...yeah, maybe emotions cause a lot of problems, but not having them isn’t an option. And I’m not sure that not having narratives is an option either. It seems to me that I’m going to think of my life as a narrative in any case; I might as well try to understand and analyze and shape it. (Just as I shape my emotions, trying to lean away from the emotions that seem net-negative...but the way to do that is to guide yourself towards different emotions.)
I’m not sure why we’re focusing in on narratives here, but I suspect it’s for not very good reasons. Whether it’s good for some people to “think of themselves as sidekicks” seems less important than whether it’s good for people to actually perform the actions of a “sidekick”. We can talk about how to promote or discourage the set of actions once that’s settled. I’d much rather present a breakdown of what I actually do day to day and why, and then have people point out what precisely it is that I’m doing wrong.
Well, one reason is to avoid driving down wages and worsening working conditions for yourself and everyone else in your profession. It’s not a coincidence that the jobs that people feel “passionate” about are the jobs where it’s hardest to make a living, like writing or music. I wrote a post about that.
Yeah, pretty much. The whole PC vs NPC idea feels slightly distasteful to me.
I hope you wouldn’t give this advice to cofounders or early employees with an ownership stake, though, and that may be a better lens for viewing these sorts of relationships.
I don’t think a cofounder should be a sidekick. It’s more of a partnership, with voting and all.
So, I think that a sidekick can feel some ownership over what their hero does, and that feeling that will make them a better sidekick (in part, because they will be less likely to stop thinking about it at 6 pm).
I’m also having a hard time disentangling this in my mind from thoughts about households: in some sense, couples cofound a household together, and it seems counter-productive to think about that in solely mercenary terms, or to ‘clock out’ of your household.
I think I also find myself unhappy with what might be reflexive egalitarianism that is unhappy with unequal splits of decision-making power or status or so on. It’s okay to be unseen; it’s okay to be a junior partner; it’s okay to be a servant. A lot of talk about ‘purpose’ emphasizes having ‘something bigger than yourself,’ and it seems to me that finding purpose in the people around you is something worth applauding.
It is also a great way to avoid receiving job offers. “Your company is my cause” is one of the socially-necessitated blatant lies of our age.
Oh, I never said they shouldn’t lie.
I am from Britain and I can say with experience that working for a company in exchange for money is not an effective way to avoid 24⁄7 sleep with the hero situations. I know quite a few people who have a poor work life balance because they are working for a company and have more stressful situations and conflicts. I’ve seen people work themselves to depression, divorce, and death thanks to my involvement with the very toxic British banking culture.
Your avoidance of such things dependends on the independent variable of how assertive you are at managing your work/life balance and how good your goal setting is. It’s quite easy to overwork yourself for money. Wanting to be a sidekick or a hero or a equal professional doesn’t increase or decrease your skill at maintaining a work life balance or your goal setting skills any more than it increases your physical strength or intellect.
Banking has that reputation in America too. I would hazard a guess that the problem is banking, not Britain (I used to work in finance, though not in banking specifically).