Really. I don’t emphasize this because I care more about humanity’s survival than the next decades sucking really hard for me and everyone I love. But how do LW futurists not expect catastrophic job loss that destroys the global economy?
I don’t emphasize this because I care more about humanity’s survival than the next decades sucking really hard for me and everyone I love.
I’m flabbergasted by this degree/kind of altruism. I respect you for it, but I literally cannot bring myself to care about “humanity”’s survival if it means the permanent impoverishment, enslavement or starvation of everybody I love. That future is simply not much better on my lights than everyone including the gpu-controllers meeting a similar fate. In fact I think my instincts are to hate that outcome more, because it’s unjust.
But how do LW futurists not expect catastrophic job loss that destroys the global economy?
Slight correction: catastrophic job loss would destroy the ability of the non-landed, working public to paritcipate in and extract value from the global economy. The global economy itself would be fine. I agree this is a natural conclusion; I guess people were hoping to get 10 or 15 more years out of their natural gifts.
Survival is obviously much better because 1. You can lose jobs but eventually still have a good life (think UBI at minimum) and 2. Because if you don’t like it you can always kill yourself and be in the same spot as the non-survival case anyway.
Thank you. Oddly, I am less altruistic than many EA/LWers. They routinely blow me away.
I can only maintain even that much altruism because I think there’s a very good chance that the future could be very, very good for a truly vast number of humans and conscious AGIs. I don’t think it’s that likely that we get a perpetual boot-on-face situation. I think only about 1% of humans are so sociopathic AND sadistic in combination that they wouldn’t eventually let their tiny sliver of empathy cause them to use their nearly-unlimited power to make life good for people. They wouldn’t risk giving up control, just share enough to be hailed as a benevolent hero instead of merely god-emperor for eternity.
I have done a little “metta” meditation to expand my circle of empathy. I think it makes me happy; I can “borrow joy”. The side effect is weird decisions like letting my family suffer so that more strangers can flourish in a future I probably won’t see.
catastrophic job loss would destroy the ability of the non-landed, working public to paritcipate in and extract value from the global economy. The global economy itself would be fine.
Who would the producers of stuff be selling it to in that scenario?
BTW, I recently saw the suggestion that discussions of “the economy” can be clarified by replacing the phrase with “rich people’s yacht money”. There’s something in that. If 90% of the population are destitute, then 90% of the farms and factories have to shut down for lack of demand (i.e. not having the means to buy), which puts more out of work, until you get a world in which a handful of people control the robots that keep them in food and yachts and wait for the masses to die off.
I wonder if there are any key players who would welcome that scenario. Average utilitarianism FTW!
At least, supposing there are still any people controlling the robots by then.
catastrophic job loss that destroys the global economy?
I expect the US or Chinese government to take control of these systems sooner than later to maintain sovereignty. I also expect there will be some force to counteract the rapid nominal deflation that would happen if there was mass job loss. Every ultra rich person now relies on billions of people buying their products to give their companies the valuation they have.
I don’t think people want nominal deflation even if it’s real economic growth. This will result in massive printing from the fed that probably lands in poeple’s pockets (Iike covid checks).
I think this is reasonably likely, but not a guaranteed outcome, and I do think there’s a non-trivial chance that the US regulates it way too late to matter, because I expect mass job loss to be one of the last things AI does, due to pretty severe reliability issues with current AI.
I think Elon will bring strong concern about AI to fore in current executive—he was an early voice for AI safety though he seems too have updated to a more optimistic view (and is pushing development through x-AI) he still generally states P(doom) ~10-20%. His antipathy towards Altman and Google founders is likely of benefit for AI regulation too—though no answer for the China et al AGI development problem.
I also expect government control; see If we solve alignment, do we die anyway? for musings about the risks thereof. But it is a possible partial solution to job loss. It’s a lot tougher to pass a law saying “no one can make this promising new technology even though it will vastly increase economic productivity” than to just show up to one company and say “heeeey so we couldn’t help but notice you guys are building something that will utterly shift the balance of power in the world.… can we just, you know, sit in and hear what you’re doing with it and maybe kibbitz a bit?” Then nationalize it officially if and when that seems necessary.
For politicians, yes—but the new administration looks to be strongly pro-tech (unless DJ Trump gets a bee in his bonnet and turns dramatically anti-Musk).
For the national security apparatus, the second seems more in line with how they get things done. And I expect them to twig to the dramatic implications much faster than the politicians do. In this case, there’s not even anything illegal or difficult about just having some liasons at OAI and an informal request to have them present in any important meetings.
At this point I’d be surprised to see meaningful legislation slowing AI/AGI progress in the US, because the “we’re racing China” narrative is so compelling—particularly to the good old military-industrial complex, but also to people at large.
Slowing down might be handing the race to China, or at least a near-tie.
I am becoming more sure that would beat going full-speed without a solid alignment plan. Despite my complete failure to interest anyone in the question of Who is Xi Jinping? in terms of how he or his successors would use AGI. I don’t think he’s sociopathic/sadistic enough to create worse x-risks or s-risks than rushing to AGI does. But I don’t know.
We still somehow got the steam engine, electricity, cars, etc.
There is an element of international competition to it. If we slack here, China will probably raise armies of robots with unlimited firepower and take over the world. (They constantly show aggression)
The longshoreman strike is only allowed (I think) because the west coast did automate and somehow are less efficient than the east coast for example.
If we slack here, China will probably raise armies of robots with unlimited firepower and take over the world
Or maybe they will accidentally ban AI too due to being a dysfunctional autocracy, as autocracies are wont to do, all the while remaining just as clueless regarding what’s happening as their US counterparts banning AI to protect the jobs.
I think a lot of this is wishful thinking from safetyists who want AI development to stop. This may be reductionist but almost every pause historically can be explained economics.
Nuclear—war usage is wholly owned by the state and developed to its saturation point (i.e. once you have nukes that can kill all your enemies, there is little reason to develop them more). Energy-wise, supposedly, it was hamstrung by regulation, but in countries like China where development went unfettered, they are still not dominant. This tells me a lot it not being developed is it not being economical.
For bio related things, Eroom’s law reigns supreme. It is just economically unviable to discover drugs in the way we do. Despite this, it’s clear that bioweapons are regularly researched by government labs. The USG being so eager to fund gof research despite its bad optics should tell you as much.
Or maybe they will accidentally ban AI too due to being a dysfunctional autocracy—
I remember many essays from people all over this site on how China wouldn’t be able to get to X-1 nm (or the crucial step for it) for decades, and China would always figure a way to get to that nm or step within a few months. They surpassed our chip lithography expectations for them. They are very competent. They are run by probably the most competent government bureaucracy in the world. I don’t know what it is, but people keep underestimating China’s progress. When they aim their efforts on a target, they almost always achieve it.
Rapid progress is a powerful attractor state that requires a global hegemon to stop. China is very keen on the possibilities of AI which is why they stop at nothing to get their hands on Nvidia GPUs. They also have literally no reason to develop a centralized project they are fully in control of. We have superhuman AI that seem quite easy to control already. What is stopping this centralized project on their end. No one is buying that even o3, which is nearly superhuman in math and coding, and probably lots of scientific research, is going to attempt world takeover.
Really. I don’t emphasize this because I care more about humanity’s survival than the next decades sucking really hard for me and everyone I love. But how do LW futurists not expect catastrophic job loss that destroys the global economy?
I’m flabbergasted by this degree/kind of altruism. I respect you for it, but I literally cannot bring myself to care about “humanity”’s survival if it means the permanent impoverishment, enslavement or starvation of everybody I love. That future is simply not much better on my lights than everyone including the gpu-controllers meeting a similar fate. In fact I think my instincts are to hate that outcome more, because it’s unjust.
Slight correction: catastrophic job loss would destroy the ability of the non-landed, working public to paritcipate in and extract value from the global economy. The global economy itself would be fine. I agree this is a natural conclusion; I guess people were hoping to get 10 or 15 more years out of their natural gifts.
Survival is obviously much better because 1. You can lose jobs but eventually still have a good life (think UBI at minimum) and 2. Because if you don’t like it you can always kill yourself and be in the same spot as the non-survival case anyway.
Not to get too morbid here but I don’t think this is a good argument. People tend not to commit suicide even if they have strongly net negative lives
Thank you. Oddly, I am less altruistic than many EA/LWers. They routinely blow me away.
I can only maintain even that much altruism because I think there’s a very good chance that the future could be very, very good for a truly vast number of humans and conscious AGIs. I don’t think it’s that likely that we get a perpetual boot-on-face situation. I think only about 1% of humans are so sociopathic AND sadistic in combination that they wouldn’t eventually let their tiny sliver of empathy cause them to use their nearly-unlimited power to make life good for people. They wouldn’t risk giving up control, just share enough to be hailed as a benevolent hero instead of merely god-emperor for eternity.
I have done a little “metta” meditation to expand my circle of empathy. I think it makes me happy; I can “borrow joy”. The side effect is weird decisions like letting my family suffer so that more strangers can flourish in a future I probably won’t see.
Who would the producers of stuff be selling it to in that scenario?
BTW, I recently saw the suggestion that discussions of “the economy” can be clarified by replacing the phrase with “rich people’s yacht money”. There’s something in that. If 90% of the population are destitute, then 90% of the farms and factories have to shut down for lack of demand (i.e. not having the means to buy), which puts more out of work, until you get a world in which a handful of people control the robots that keep them in food and yachts and wait for the masses to die off.
I wonder if there are any key players who would welcome that scenario. Average utilitarianism FTW!
At least, supposing there are still any people controlling the robots by then.
That’s what would happen, and the fact that nobody wanted it to happen wouldn’t help. It’s a Tragedy of the Commons situation.
Why would that be the likely case? Are you sure it’s likely or are you just catastrophizing?
I expect the US or Chinese government to take control of these systems sooner than later to maintain sovereignty. I also expect there will be some force to counteract the rapid nominal deflation that would happen if there was mass job loss. Every ultra rich person now relies on billions of people buying their products to give their companies the valuation they have.
I don’t think people want nominal deflation even if it’s real economic growth. This will result in massive printing from the fed that probably lands in poeple’s pockets (Iike covid checks).
I think this is reasonably likely, but not a guaranteed outcome, and I do think there’s a non-trivial chance that the US regulates it way too late to matter, because I expect mass job loss to be one of the last things AI does, due to pretty severe reliability issues with current AI.
I think Elon will bring strong concern about AI to fore in current executive—he was an early voice for AI safety though he seems too have updated to a more optimistic view (and is pushing development through x-AI) he still generally states P(doom) ~10-20%. His antipathy towards Altman and Google founders is likely of benefit for AI regulation too—though no answer for the China et al AGI development problem.
I also expect government control; see If we solve alignment, do we die anyway? for musings about the risks thereof. But it is a possible partial solution to job loss. It’s a lot tougher to pass a law saying “no one can make this promising new technology even though it will vastly increase economic productivity” than to just show up to one company and say “heeeey so we couldn’t help but notice you guys are building something that will utterly shift the balance of power in the world.… can we just, you know, sit in and hear what you’re doing with it and maybe kibbitz a bit?” Then nationalize it officially if and when that seems necessary.
I actually think doing the former is considerably more in line with the way things are done/closer to the Overton window.
For politicians, yes—but the new administration looks to be strongly pro-tech (unless DJ Trump gets a bee in his bonnet and turns dramatically anti-Musk).
For the national security apparatus, the second seems more in line with how they get things done. And I expect them to twig to the dramatic implications much faster than the politicians do. In this case, there’s not even anything illegal or difficult about just having some liasons at OAI and an informal request to have them present in any important meetings.
At this point I’d be surprised to see meaningful legislation slowing AI/AGI progress in the US, because the “we’re racing China” narrative is so compelling—particularly to the good old military-industrial complex, but also to people at large.
Slowing down might be handing the race to China, or at least a near-tie.
I am becoming more sure that would beat going full-speed without a solid alignment plan. Despite my complete failure to interest anyone in the question of Who is Xi Jinping? in terms of how he or his successors would use AGI. I don’t think he’s sociopathic/sadistic enough to create worse x-risks or s-risks than rushing to AGI does. But I don’t know.
We still somehow got the steam engine, electricity, cars, etc.
There is an element of international competition to it. If we slack here, China will probably raise armies of robots with unlimited firepower and take over the world. (They constantly show aggression)
The longshoreman strike is only allowed (I think) because the west coast did automate and somehow are less efficient than the east coast for example.
Counterpoints: nuclear power, pharmaceuticals, bioengineering, urban development.
Or maybe they will accidentally ban AI too due to being a dysfunctional autocracy, as autocracies are wont to do, all the while remaining just as clueless regarding what’s happening as their US counterparts banning AI to protect the jobs.
I don’t really expect that to happen, but survival-without-dignity scenarios do seem salient.
I think a lot of this is wishful thinking from safetyists who want AI development to stop. This may be reductionist but almost every pause historically can be explained economics.
Nuclear—war usage is wholly owned by the state and developed to its saturation point (i.e. once you have nukes that can kill all your enemies, there is little reason to develop them more). Energy-wise, supposedly, it was hamstrung by regulation, but in countries like China where development went unfettered, they are still not dominant. This tells me a lot it not being developed is it not being economical.
For bio related things, Eroom’s law reigns supreme. It is just economically unviable to discover drugs in the way we do. Despite this, it’s clear that bioweapons are regularly researched by government labs. The USG being so eager to fund gof research despite its bad optics should tell you as much.
Or maybe they will accidentally ban AI too due to being a dysfunctional autocracy—
I remember many essays from people all over this site on how China wouldn’t be able to get to X-1 nm (or the crucial step for it) for decades, and China would always figure a way to get to that nm or step within a few months. They surpassed our chip lithography expectations for them. They are very competent. They are run by probably the most competent government bureaucracy in the world. I don’t know what it is, but people keep underestimating China’s progress. When they aim their efforts on a target, they almost always achieve it.
Rapid progress is a powerful attractor state that requires a global hegemon to stop. China is very keen on the possibilities of AI which is why they stop at nothing to get their hands on Nvidia GPUs. They also have literally no reason to develop a centralized project they are fully in control of. We have superhuman AI that seem quite easy to control already. What is stopping this centralized project on their end. No one is buying that even o3, which is nearly superhuman in math and coding, and probably lots of scientific research, is going to attempt world takeover.