How about you try taking my arguments seriously rather then dismissing them as snark.
I am trying, but “chanting in unison” is simpy not constructive. It is a fact that human interests and identities in rich nations multiplied beyond counting. I don’t know what is so chanty or unisonic about it. Also, it probably comes from having basic needs met a lot of free time. I think we should be understanding it instead of dismissing it as chanting, snowflakery, or that famous scene from Brian’s Life. But it seems you are trying to judge it hard or dismiss it instead of engaging with it.
I mean I understand your dislike for it—you like to be in surival mode and I respect that—I am in between, hedging my bets for the need for that but also preparing for a world beyond scarcity. But it is useful to set that aside and try to understand society as it is, without judging it quickly.
My point was that when you see “a bunch of selfish (as defined above) people insisting that a bunch of unselfish people are totally like them”, the ‘selfish’ people are generally correct.
Yes, because “unselfish” ideas in the last 100-150 years were crazily beyond the Dunbar number: world peace, socialism for all, and so on. But this is no reason to dismiss it within that number, simply that habit of correctly dismissing universalist unselfishness is not useful for that. It is simply a different thing.
Ten-people socialism can sort of work (for small values of work) under extremely special circumstances at best.
Yes, and the colonial-era model more-or-less cuts reality at the joints as modern genetic analysis confirms.
Which analysis? I think the genetic distance between 2pac Shakur and Haile Selassie must be fairly big.
Let’s get real here. How high is a chance that pre-scientific categories based on mere looks would just magically happen to be true? What would make them so? Do you think behavior genes move together closely with UV-protection (or D-vitamin uptake) genes? Why would they ever?
Specifically for the US, it would be more useful to think in terms for ex-slaves rather as blacks: it could have more explanatory power on both sides, social prejudice and discriminatory institutions, both problematic sub-culture and yes even some dysgenic effects. Why a sample size of 1 is not that useful, it seems interesting that that most powerful half-black man in the US is not of ex-slave stock.
Here is a map that I found after a little searching.
Thanks, I was simply lazy with my googling. Yet, the problem is that it works exactly the same way the infamous book “The Spirit Level”, who present similar stats for inequality. And it is problematic for the very same reason, it breaks down if you apply the trend to more detailed cases. Since Italy is obviously more stupidly organized in every possible way than Denmark or Canada, whatever the tests behind the map measure is simply not that relevant for real life…
Have you ever considered such a thing as test-taking ability? Such as the East Asian habit of cramming hard and studying your ass off increasing your test-taking ability: and reversed for lower-IQ groups?
I am not interested in your concern trolling.
Wait a bit ,CT is something done inside a political community. Since I am not inside yours but in between yours and your opponents, this does not apply. IMHO a prerequisite for CT is to first identify as allies.
Sure, restrict to murder. You still get extremely strong correlations with race.
And restrict it to being a murder victim and you get the same correlation. If black-on-black murder is the most common in the US i.e. gang war the first prediction that comes to me is “holy shit, that is some intense competition for drug-dealing positions”, and then I would to investigate what made that niche so desirable to compete for, perhaps lack of other niches?
Investigating the cause of that correlation. One explanation is different rates of poverty. This explanation can be tested by comparing black and white populations of the same economic status. (Spoiler: the correlation doesn’t go away.)
A classic case of reversed stupidity. Lefties do this i.e. The Spirit Level and you just reversed it. No, it is absolutely wrong methodology to start from an observed correlation, control for some factors and then assume whatever was not controlled out and I like it is true.
Correlation tends to be so incredibly misleading that if it was on me I would do away with those kinds of studies entirely and focus on purely studying individual factors with clear casual chains.
E.g. it was an excellent criticism of The Spirit Level that by the same logic selective garbage collection leads to suicide. (Scandinavia). You may as well claim on the same logic that having nordic genes leads to suicide. This is simply pointless.
Correlation is IMHO a mind-killer because it diverts attention away from causality. The problem with correlation is having things exactly backward, going from effects to causes instead of causes to effects. it is “this is this aggregate phenomenon, how do I explain it?” which is an absolutely wrong approach, the correct approach being “here is this singular factor, what does it cause”?
IMHO one rule of rationality is to ask very, very rarely what caused X as long as X is something aggregate. Rather ask what does Y cause.
It would be funny to watch you debate with someone who believes in The Spirit Level. Very similar methodology.
Ten-people socialism can sort of work (for small values of work) under extremely special circumstances at best.
Is this so special?
The extended family isn’t socialism, as seen by the fact that it’s members own most things separetly and cooperate on a more-or-less reciprocal basis. At least as reciprocal as the Red Pillers you’re calling “selfish”.
I think the genetic distance between 2pac Shakur and Haile Selassie must be fairly big.
Wow, inpresive conclusions from what is effectively a single gene.
Let’s get real here. How high is a chance that pre-scientific categories based on mere looks would just magically happen to be true?
What do you mean by “mere looks”, no the victorian era categories weren’t based only on skin color, they involved other things including behaviour.
What would make them so? Do you think behavior genes move together closely with UV-protection (or D-vitamin uptake) genes? Why would they ever?
No, but they move together with having antcectors from the same continent, thus being in the same gene pool.
Thanks, I was simply lazy with my googling. Yet, the problem is that it works exactly the same way the infamous book “The Spirit Level”, who present similar stats for inequality. And it is problematic for the very same reason, it breaks down if you apply the trend to more detailed cases. Since Italy is obviously more stupidly organized in every possible way than Denmark or Canada, whatever the tests behind the map measure is simply not that relevant for real life...
It’s relevant, it’s just not the only relevant thing.
Wait a bit ,CT is something done inside a political community. Since I am not inside yours but in between yours and your opponents, this does not apply. IMHO a prerequisite for CT is to first identify as allies.
Then make your objections in your own name. Don’t try to disguise them as tactical advise about how by telling the truth I “make the lefties’ job easier”.
And restrict it to being a murder victim and you get the same correlation. If black-on-black murder is the most common in the US i.e. gang war
Note the conclusion you’re jumping to, on apperantly no evidence besides highly distorted ideas filtered through pop culture.
the first prediction that comes to me is “holy shit, that is some intense competition for drug-dealing positions”, and then I would to investigate what made that niche so desirable to compete for, perhaps lack of other niches?
And yet for some reason poor whites don’t kill other poor whites at the same rate. Also, the black on black murder rate was much lower back during the Jim Crow days when the niches available to blacks really were more limited.
A classic case of reversed stupidity. Lefties do this i.e. The Spirit Level and you just reversed it. No, it is absolutely wrong methodology to start from an observed correlation, control for some factors and then assume whatever was not controlled out and I like it is true.
What do you think I assumed is true? Could you point me to where I assumed it. I’m not sure what causes this correlation, or rather how much of it is genetic versus culture. You seem to be agreeing with the SJW position that says we souldn’t even be allowed to think about explanations other then “white racism”.
Correlation tends to be so incredibly misleading that if it was on me I would do away with those kinds of studies entirely and focus on purely studying individual factors with clear casual chains.
So you’d do away with all science except physiscs and parts of chemistry? Or do you only apply this standard when the conclusions make you uncomfortable?
IMHO one rule of rationality is to ask very, very rarely what caused X as long as X is something aggregate.
So since temperature is the aggregate of the movement of the molecules in a substance, we shouldn’t investigate what causes temperature changes? To say nothing of investigating, say the causes of diseases.
No, but they move together with having antcectors from the same continent, thus being in the same gene pool.
The earliest succesful migration out of Africa is 60K years ago, that is calculation with 15 years 4K generations. The rest is largely the math how much evolution is even possible in such a timeframe.
You seem to be agreeing with the SJW position that says we souldn’t even be allowed to think about explanations other then “white racism”.
Not really, that is an equally bogus one, because that kind of explanation assumes there is something uniquely bad about whites. Really is closer to a shitfest of all the tribes against all the tribes and then some are winning. The most likely explanation is—I am more or less a Fukuyamaist, I tend to think just about everything comes from social capital i.e. trust—trust, cooperation, coordination breaking down when people look or act to alien to each other.
So you’d do away with all science except physiscs and parts of chemistry? Or do you only apply this standard when the conclusions make you uncomfortable?
What? No. It is perfectly doable in social science. E.g. experimenting with throwing better schools in this hood, more police in that one, jobs in a third one, rewards for snitches in the fourth etc.
So since temperature is the aggregate of the movement of the molecules in a substance, we shouldn’t investigate what causes temperature changes? To say nothing of investigating, say the causes of diseases.
I think I should explain it in longer detail in a post… but in a nutshell going back from effects to causes is always way harder than the other way around: you can easier observe what a lighting strike causes than what causes a lightning strike. With aggregate effects it becomes even harder and it is easy to err, and thus it is easy to mislead intentionally (“there is a correlation, most common causes A, B, C can be ruled out thus it must be my pet idea D!”). If the goal is to improve, not blame, you are better off playing with individual variables and see if they improve things.
The most likely explanation is—I am more or less a Fukuyamaist, I tend to think just about everything comes from social capital i.e. trust—trust, cooperation, coordination breaking down when people look or act to alien to each other.
Or when the system to punish defectors breaks down.
If the goal is to improve, not blame, you are better off playing with individual variables and see if they improve things.
We’ve been doing that for the past ~60 years (WRT black achievement), things haven’t been improving.
Or when the system to punish defectors breaks down.
I have a theory for that, just don’t know how to test it. The idea is that the community the defection seems like happening from is not the actual community. It is based on what Theodore Dalrymple experienced in East Africa, I think Tanzania, which rhymes with some of my experiences near the underworld of Eastern Europe and the Balkans. Basically what they do or did there is villages sacrificing a lot to get 1-2 guy educated and into a government job, who will then use corruption, bribery, pull to divert resources into his village. Being corrupted is a community duty and virtue with regard to his village. It looks like defection, but only as long as you think the nation-state and its rules and laws are his real community. If the real community is the village, it is not a defection.
I think e.g. the oligarchical gangsterism in Russia after the Soviet collapse was not defection: there was nowhere from, the state and nation/empire as a community, in the consciousness sense, stopped existing. The actual community these people operated in was the nomenclature’s Old Boys Networks and they did obey the rules and laws of that community e.g. remember a repay favors, deliver the service you were bribed to deliver and so on.
I know very little about the situation in the US, but the anecdote that studying well may be seen as acting white and thus defection from the black community is something you should be investigating. Are the people defecting from the white / national community even parts of it, in their own eyes?
I think e.g. the oligarchical gangsterism in Russia after the Soviet collapse was not defection: there was nowhere from, the state and nation/empire as a community, in the consciousness sense, stopped existing.
The reason the nation/empire stopped existing as a community is because so many people were defecting from it. The “nomenclature’s Old Boys Networks” was a substitute community that developed among parts of the elite, and my understanding is there was a lot of defection and back-stabbing even within it.
I am trying, but “chanting in unison” is simpy not constructive. It is a fact that human interests and identities in rich nations multiplied beyond counting. I don’t know what is so chanty or unisonic about it. Also, it probably comes from having basic needs met a lot of free time. I think we should be understanding it instead of dismissing it as chanting, snowflakery, or that famous scene from Brian’s Life. But it seems you are trying to judge it hard or dismiss it instead of engaging with it.
I mean I understand your dislike for it—you like to be in surival mode and I respect that—I am in between, hedging my bets for the need for that but also preparing for a world beyond scarcity. But it is useful to set that aside and try to understand society as it is, without judging it quickly.
Yes, because “unselfish” ideas in the last 100-150 years were crazily beyond the Dunbar number: world peace, socialism for all, and so on. But this is no reason to dismiss it within that number, simply that habit of correctly dismissing universalist unselfishness is not useful for that. It is simply a different thing.
Is this so special?
Which analysis? I think the genetic distance between 2pac Shakur and Haile Selassie must be fairly big.
Let’s get real here. How high is a chance that pre-scientific categories based on mere looks would just magically happen to be true? What would make them so? Do you think behavior genes move together closely with UV-protection (or D-vitamin uptake) genes? Why would they ever?
Specifically for the US, it would be more useful to think in terms for ex-slaves rather as blacks: it could have more explanatory power on both sides, social prejudice and discriminatory institutions, both problematic sub-culture and yes even some dysgenic effects. Why a sample size of 1 is not that useful, it seems interesting that that most powerful half-black man in the US is not of ex-slave stock.
Thanks, I was simply lazy with my googling. Yet, the problem is that it works exactly the same way the infamous book “The Spirit Level”, who present similar stats for inequality. And it is problematic for the very same reason, it breaks down if you apply the trend to more detailed cases. Since Italy is obviously more stupidly organized in every possible way than Denmark or Canada, whatever the tests behind the map measure is simply not that relevant for real life…
Have you ever considered such a thing as test-taking ability? Such as the East Asian habit of cramming hard and studying your ass off increasing your test-taking ability: and reversed for lower-IQ groups?
Wait a bit ,CT is something done inside a political community. Since I am not inside yours but in between yours and your opponents, this does not apply. IMHO a prerequisite for CT is to first identify as allies.
And restrict it to being a murder victim and you get the same correlation. If black-on-black murder is the most common in the US i.e. gang war the first prediction that comes to me is “holy shit, that is some intense competition for drug-dealing positions”, and then I would to investigate what made that niche so desirable to compete for, perhaps lack of other niches?
A classic case of reversed stupidity. Lefties do this i.e. The Spirit Level and you just reversed it. No, it is absolutely wrong methodology to start from an observed correlation, control for some factors and then assume whatever was not controlled out and I like it is true.
Correlation tends to be so incredibly misleading that if it was on me I would do away with those kinds of studies entirely and focus on purely studying individual factors with clear casual chains.
E.g. it was an excellent criticism of The Spirit Level that by the same logic selective garbage collection leads to suicide. (Scandinavia). You may as well claim on the same logic that having nordic genes leads to suicide. This is simply pointless.
Correlation is IMHO a mind-killer because it diverts attention away from causality. The problem with correlation is having things exactly backward, going from effects to causes instead of causes to effects. it is “this is this aggregate phenomenon, how do I explain it?” which is an absolutely wrong approach, the correct approach being “here is this singular factor, what does it cause”?
IMHO one rule of rationality is to ask very, very rarely what caused X as long as X is something aggregate. Rather ask what does Y cause.
It would be funny to watch you debate with someone who believes in The Spirit Level. Very similar methodology.
The extended family isn’t socialism, as seen by the fact that it’s members own most things separetly and cooperate on a more-or-less reciprocal basis. At least as reciprocal as the Red Pillers you’re calling “selfish”.
Wow, inpresive conclusions from what is effectively a single gene.
What do you mean by “mere looks”, no the victorian era categories weren’t based only on skin color, they involved other things including behaviour.
No, but they move together with having antcectors from the same continent, thus being in the same gene pool.
It’s relevant, it’s just not the only relevant thing.
Then make your objections in your own name. Don’t try to disguise them as tactical advise about how by telling the truth I “make the lefties’ job easier”.
Note the conclusion you’re jumping to, on apperantly no evidence besides highly distorted ideas filtered through pop culture.
And yet for some reason poor whites don’t kill other poor whites at the same rate. Also, the black on black murder rate was much lower back during the Jim Crow days when the niches available to blacks really were more limited.
What do you think I assumed is true? Could you point me to where I assumed it. I’m not sure what causes this correlation, or rather how much of it is genetic versus culture. You seem to be agreeing with the SJW position that says we souldn’t even be allowed to think about explanations other then “white racism”.
So you’d do away with all science except physiscs and parts of chemistry? Or do you only apply this standard when the conclusions make you uncomfortable?
So since temperature is the aggregate of the movement of the molecules in a substance, we shouldn’t investigate what causes temperature changes? To say nothing of investigating, say the causes of diseases.
The earliest succesful migration out of Africa is 60K years ago, that is calculation with 15 years 4K generations. The rest is largely the math how much evolution is even possible in such a timeframe.
Not really, that is an equally bogus one, because that kind of explanation assumes there is something uniquely bad about whites. Really is closer to a shitfest of all the tribes against all the tribes and then some are winning. The most likely explanation is—I am more or less a Fukuyamaist, I tend to think just about everything comes from social capital i.e. trust—trust, cooperation, coordination breaking down when people look or act to alien to each other.
What? No. It is perfectly doable in social science. E.g. experimenting with throwing better schools in this hood, more police in that one, jobs in a third one, rewards for snitches in the fourth etc.
I think I should explain it in longer detail in a post… but in a nutshell going back from effects to causes is always way harder than the other way around: you can easier observe what a lighting strike causes than what causes a lightning strike. With aggregate effects it becomes even harder and it is easy to err, and thus it is easy to mislead intentionally (“there is a correlation, most common causes A, B, C can be ruled out thus it must be my pet idea D!”). If the goal is to improve, not blame, you are better off playing with individual variables and see if they improve things.
Or when the system to punish defectors breaks down.
We’ve been doing that for the past ~60 years (WRT black achievement), things haven’t been improving.
I have a theory for that, just don’t know how to test it. The idea is that the community the defection seems like happening from is not the actual community. It is based on what Theodore Dalrymple experienced in East Africa, I think Tanzania, which rhymes with some of my experiences near the underworld of Eastern Europe and the Balkans. Basically what they do or did there is villages sacrificing a lot to get 1-2 guy educated and into a government job, who will then use corruption, bribery, pull to divert resources into his village. Being corrupted is a community duty and virtue with regard to his village. It looks like defection, but only as long as you think the nation-state and its rules and laws are his real community. If the real community is the village, it is not a defection.
I think e.g. the oligarchical gangsterism in Russia after the Soviet collapse was not defection: there was nowhere from, the state and nation/empire as a community, in the consciousness sense, stopped existing. The actual community these people operated in was the nomenclature’s Old Boys Networks and they did obey the rules and laws of that community e.g. remember a repay favors, deliver the service you were bribed to deliver and so on.
I know very little about the situation in the US, but the anecdote that studying well may be seen as acting white and thus defection from the black community is something you should be investigating. Are the people defecting from the white / national community even parts of it, in their own eyes?
The reason the nation/empire stopped existing as a community is because so many people were defecting from it. The “nomenclature’s Old Boys Networks” was a substitute community that developed among parts of the elite, and my understanding is there was a lot of defection and back-stabbing even within it.