It is indeed a shame that you have to behave like this to get laid.
You don’t. That particular application of those principles is only required under a certain set of circumstances, for a certain set of people.
Compare, e.g. the “Johnny Soporno” philosophy of being “the man who doesn’t count”. Before I got married, I was a “man who didn’t count” for a few women, and there was absolutely no lying involved on my part. I didn’t learn that approach from J.S. -- I came by it naturally. Nonetheless, I heartily approve of the portion of his philosophy that I’ve heard: i.e., honest liberation for men and women.
I am also under the impression that JS is far from the only person who advocates strict honesty about one’s intentions… indeed, it’s a common enough concept that there’s an acronym for it (SOI, for “Statement of Intent”), and one guy wrote an entire book on it, called “Mode One”.
To get sex with no strings attached, you have to lie and manipulate, or be extremely high-value for some reason. (e.g. by being a rock-star)
Thing is, having confident SOI or being “mode one” makes you a high-value person in a lot of women’s eyes, by virtue of your confidence and honesty. In my single days, this and a certain amount of social proof (I had a lot of female friends) were the only “game” I needed.
Thing is, having confident SOI or being “mode one” makes you a high-value
Once you’re already experienced, yes. But get a newbie to SOI a girl and he’ll either bottle out or completely screw up. To get to the stage where you have the confidence in your ability to get laid that is required for direct game to work, you need indirect game, AKA lying and manipulation.
“Direct game” - being relatively honest about your intentions still isn’t full honesty. For example, you’ll still have to deal with LMR, the girl will still want to be chased, she’ll shit-test you etc, etc.
honest liberation for men and women.
honest and “sexual interaction” don’t mix very well. The honesty of direct game is a limited kind of honesty: “I’ll screw you but only if your body language sub-communicates alpha male to me”. “Honest” and “Loving, committed long term relationship” work, though.
Once you’re already experienced, yes. But get a newbie to SOI a girl and he’ll either bottle out or completely screw up. To get to the stage where you have the confidence in your ability to get laid that is required for direct game to work, you need indirect game, AKA lying and manipulation.
You’re talking about cold approach in a public social situation with immature and self-deceiving women. The situations I’m talking about were the exact opposite in all three, as I like intelligent, mature women. If I had to lie to a woman for more than say, five minutes on first meeting her, before admitting to the lie as a way to get to talk to her, I really wouldn’t be interested.
I realize some men aren’t wired that way. I’m just pointing out that if all you want is to “get laid”, then verbal alpha subcom is sufficient, especially with social proof. Before I got married, every party I went to had a room full of pivots—i.e., female friends who either specifically set me up, or at least gave social proof by talking to me. And anybody I went out with, I’d already chatted with online, and impressed verbally that way.
“Direct game”—being relatively honest about your intentions still isn’t full honesty. For example, you’ll still have to deal with LMR, the girl will still want to be chased, she’ll shit-test you etc, etc.
You’ve got to be kidding me. Girls chased me. I’ve never been much of a chaser, to be honest. I can’t remember anyone who shit-tested me. And LMR is only an issue if you’re the one doing the initiating.
In a way, I’m kind of glad that I didn’t study this stuff in those days, because I might have run into some of the stuff you’re saying here, and actually believed it. I could have used more confidence, and if I’d been better at attraction/extraction logistics I probably I wouldn’t have had to wait until I was 20+ to lose my virginity.
In college, never got past the rapport stage on cold approach, but it wasn’t a question of shit tests or anything. I could open and get rapport, but I didn’t know how to kino, escalate, time bridge, any of that stuff.
Just the logistics of pickup knowledge would’ve helped immensely there, no need for lying or manipulation. I’m pretty positive that many of those girls I talked to in college wanted me to make a move, I just didn’t have a clue how.
Anyway… lying is totally unnecessary, I don’t care how noob you are. If you can’t handle cold approach without lying, get social proof. If you’re actually worth sleeping with, you should have no problem making female friends.
SOI—statement of intent—stating outright what you intend towards a woman, anything from, “I think you might be cool to hang out with”, to “[explicit details of what I’d like to do with you in bed tonight]”.
cold approach—meeting someone you don’t know
warm approach—being introduced, already knowing them online, etc.
alpha subcom—communicating confidence non-verbally: body language, facial expressions, gesture, posture, voice tone, inflection, word choice, stories told, beliefs and attitudes expressed… everything, pretty much. Acting as-if you are an attractive and desirable man, not in the way of trying to show it, but acting the way such a man would naturally act.
shit-test—a verbal or non-verbal challenge by a woman, usually in the form of being rude or implying the man has is unworthy or “not in her league”, but this can also be in the form of a false IOI (indicator of interest). For example, a woman who speaks in an aggressively sexual fashion, without any actual sexual interest, is often shit-testing to find out if the man will respond in a way that reveals he’s more desperate for sex than he’s trying to appear. In general, shit tests are when women probe to see how confident a guy actually is, versus what he’s pretending to be. This is obviously much more an issue with cold approach than other situation, but some women shit-test their way through entire relationships.
Shit tests are a controversial subject, to say the least. Having given it more thought, I now can remember being shit tested, but I don’t think I’ve ever slept with anyone who shit tested me on initial contact. However, I also kind of agree with the trainers who say that shit testing really is an indicator of interest, in the sense that a woman only shit tests because she wants to know if the guy is “for real”—that it’s like an instinct to pinch yourself to see if you’re dreaming.
Recently, my wife’s grandmother died, and she ended up shit-testing me because on an emotional level, she needed to know that I was strong and she was safe. I didn’t handle it well at first, because I didn’t realize that was what was going on; I thought she was being unreasonable and vicious towards me for no reason.
Once I understood, however, I was able to give her what she needed, and afterward she agreed with my interpretation; she just couldn’t tell me at the time, because on an emotional level it would’ve defeated the entire purpose. (This is not a regular occurrence, fortunately.)
(In female language, I’ve had women friends tell me that they want a guy who “doesn’t let them get away with anything” or “put up with their shit”. In other words, a guy who isn’t fazed by their shit tests, either by passively putting up with them, or by freaking out, but instead by setting boundaries and making her feel safe within them.)
social proof—evidence that you’re not a weird, creepy stalker or something, as demonstrated by having friends, especially female ones. esp. such proof in real-time, visual form—i.e., saying that you have friends doesn’t count for much.
pivot—female wingman, i.e., a woman who is with you to help you meet other women and/or get laid. Usually a friend who’s not attracted to you, but thinks you should get laid more often, and will spread helpful rumors or try to match you up. (At least, that’s the kind I have experience with. I never did “club game” with a pivot, just had a social network.)
LMR—“last minute resistance”—having doubts or seeking reassurance just before sex is about to happen. Often, this takes the form of a need for reassurance that the woman is not a slut or otherwise of questionable character just because she is having sex with a guy she “hardly knows”. I don’t have much experience with this because I was never in so much of a hurry to get laid. Some PUA trainers claim that you need to know someone for at least 7 hours in order to minimize LMR, and except for the women who sought me out, I’d always spent at least that much time with someone long before they dragged me to the bedroom. (Like I said, I’ve never been much of an initiator, at least outside the chat room.)
“open”—start a conversation and have it go somewhere, as opposed to immediate rejection or quickly fading into nothingness.
rapport stage—conversation stage where you actually start to get to know someone
kino—touching, either casual, flirtatious, or beyond
escalate—taking things past rapport, to some kind of action or relationship in the present or future
time bridge—smoothly establishing a reason for future contact, without making a big commitment or “date” out of it, e.g. talking about a cool art gallery early in the conversation, then ending by saying, “oh hey, I’m going to that gallery on Thursday with my friends, you should come check it out with us,” and exchanging numbers or email.
Whew. There is a lot of terminology, isn’t there? It really is a Conspiracy with a capital C. There are a lot of different schools, but the language tends to get shared across the board.
social proof appears to mean being seen with attractive female friends who, by their presence, act as references—“as a fellow woman, I approve of this man and voluntarily choose to associate with him”
LMR stands for Last Minute Resistance
kino basically means touching, even just socially
escalate means increasing the intensity of that touching
shit-test appears to refer to women testing men to see if they can be easily manipulated, and then discarding them if they are.
“direct game” seems to be what you refer to as tactlessness =)
You don’t. That particular application of those principles is only required under a certain set of circumstances, for a certain set of people.
Compare, e.g. the “Johnny Soporno” philosophy of being “the man who doesn’t count”. Before I got married, I was a “man who didn’t count” for a few women, and there was absolutely no lying involved on my part. I didn’t learn that approach from J.S. -- I came by it naturally. Nonetheless, I heartily approve of the portion of his philosophy that I’ve heard: i.e., honest liberation for men and women.
I am also under the impression that JS is far from the only person who advocates strict honesty about one’s intentions… indeed, it’s a common enough concept that there’s an acronym for it (SOI, for “Statement of Intent”), and one guy wrote an entire book on it, called “Mode One”.
Thing is, having confident SOI or being “mode one” makes you a high-value person in a lot of women’s eyes, by virtue of your confidence and honesty. In my single days, this and a certain amount of social proof (I had a lot of female friends) were the only “game” I needed.
Once you’re already experienced, yes. But get a newbie to SOI a girl and he’ll either bottle out or completely screw up. To get to the stage where you have the confidence in your ability to get laid that is required for direct game to work, you need indirect game, AKA lying and manipulation.
“Direct game” - being relatively honest about your intentions still isn’t full honesty. For example, you’ll still have to deal with LMR, the girl will still want to be chased, she’ll shit-test you etc, etc.
honest and “sexual interaction” don’t mix very well. The honesty of direct game is a limited kind of honesty: “I’ll screw you but only if your body language sub-communicates alpha male to me”. “Honest” and “Loving, committed long term relationship” work, though.
You’re talking about cold approach in a public social situation with immature and self-deceiving women. The situations I’m talking about were the exact opposite in all three, as I like intelligent, mature women. If I had to lie to a woman for more than say, five minutes on first meeting her, before admitting to the lie as a way to get to talk to her, I really wouldn’t be interested.
I realize some men aren’t wired that way. I’m just pointing out that if all you want is to “get laid”, then verbal alpha subcom is sufficient, especially with social proof. Before I got married, every party I went to had a room full of pivots—i.e., female friends who either specifically set me up, or at least gave social proof by talking to me. And anybody I went out with, I’d already chatted with online, and impressed verbally that way.
You’ve got to be kidding me. Girls chased me. I’ve never been much of a chaser, to be honest. I can’t remember anyone who shit-tested me. And LMR is only an issue if you’re the one doing the initiating.
In a way, I’m kind of glad that I didn’t study this stuff in those days, because I might have run into some of the stuff you’re saying here, and actually believed it. I could have used more confidence, and if I’d been better at attraction/extraction logistics I probably I wouldn’t have had to wait until I was 20+ to lose my virginity.
In college, never got past the rapport stage on cold approach, but it wasn’t a question of shit tests or anything. I could open and get rapport, but I didn’t know how to kino, escalate, time bridge, any of that stuff.
Just the logistics of pickup knowledge would’ve helped immensely there, no need for lying or manipulation. I’m pretty positive that many of those girls I talked to in college wanted me to make a move, I just didn’t have a clue how.
Anyway… lying is totally unnecessary, I don’t care how noob you are. If you can’t handle cold approach without lying, get social proof. If you’re actually worth sleeping with, you should have no problem making female friends.
I’m completely baffled by the jargon here. Can you provide a glossary?
SOI—statement of intent—stating outright what you intend towards a woman, anything from, “I think you might be cool to hang out with”, to “[explicit details of what I’d like to do with you in bed tonight]”.
cold approach—meeting someone you don’t know
warm approach—being introduced, already knowing them online, etc.
alpha subcom—communicating confidence non-verbally: body language, facial expressions, gesture, posture, voice tone, inflection, word choice, stories told, beliefs and attitudes expressed… everything, pretty much. Acting as-if you are an attractive and desirable man, not in the way of trying to show it, but acting the way such a man would naturally act.
shit-test—a verbal or non-verbal challenge by a woman, usually in the form of being rude or implying the man has is unworthy or “not in her league”, but this can also be in the form of a false IOI (indicator of interest). For example, a woman who speaks in an aggressively sexual fashion, without any actual sexual interest, is often shit-testing to find out if the man will respond in a way that reveals he’s more desperate for sex than he’s trying to appear. In general, shit tests are when women probe to see how confident a guy actually is, versus what he’s pretending to be. This is obviously much more an issue with cold approach than other situation, but some women shit-test their way through entire relationships.
Shit tests are a controversial subject, to say the least. Having given it more thought, I now can remember being shit tested, but I don’t think I’ve ever slept with anyone who shit tested me on initial contact. However, I also kind of agree with the trainers who say that shit testing really is an indicator of interest, in the sense that a woman only shit tests because she wants to know if the guy is “for real”—that it’s like an instinct to pinch yourself to see if you’re dreaming.
Recently, my wife’s grandmother died, and she ended up shit-testing me because on an emotional level, she needed to know that I was strong and she was safe. I didn’t handle it well at first, because I didn’t realize that was what was going on; I thought she was being unreasonable and vicious towards me for no reason.
Once I understood, however, I was able to give her what she needed, and afterward she agreed with my interpretation; she just couldn’t tell me at the time, because on an emotional level it would’ve defeated the entire purpose. (This is not a regular occurrence, fortunately.)
(In female language, I’ve had women friends tell me that they want a guy who “doesn’t let them get away with anything” or “put up with their shit”. In other words, a guy who isn’t fazed by their shit tests, either by passively putting up with them, or by freaking out, but instead by setting boundaries and making her feel safe within them.)
social proof—evidence that you’re not a weird, creepy stalker or something, as demonstrated by having friends, especially female ones. esp. such proof in real-time, visual form—i.e., saying that you have friends doesn’t count for much.
pivot—female wingman, i.e., a woman who is with you to help you meet other women and/or get laid. Usually a friend who’s not attracted to you, but thinks you should get laid more often, and will spread helpful rumors or try to match you up. (At least, that’s the kind I have experience with. I never did “club game” with a pivot, just had a social network.)
LMR—“last minute resistance”—having doubts or seeking reassurance just before sex is about to happen. Often, this takes the form of a need for reassurance that the woman is not a slut or otherwise of questionable character just because she is having sex with a guy she “hardly knows”. I don’t have much experience with this because I was never in so much of a hurry to get laid. Some PUA trainers claim that you need to know someone for at least 7 hours in order to minimize LMR, and except for the women who sought me out, I’d always spent at least that much time with someone long before they dragged me to the bedroom. (Like I said, I’ve never been much of an initiator, at least outside the chat room.)
“open”—start a conversation and have it go somewhere, as opposed to immediate rejection or quickly fading into nothingness.
rapport stage—conversation stage where you actually start to get to know someone
kino—touching, either casual, flirtatious, or beyond
escalate—taking things past rapport, to some kind of action or relationship in the present or future
time bridge—smoothly establishing a reason for future contact, without making a big commitment or “date” out of it, e.g. talking about a cool art gallery early in the conversation, then ending by saying, “oh hey, I’m going to that gallery on Thursday with my friends, you should come check it out with us,” and exchanging numbers or email.
Whew. There is a lot of terminology, isn’t there? It really is a Conspiracy with a capital C. There are a lot of different schools, but the language tends to get shared across the board.
bit of googling:
social proof appears to mean being seen with attractive female friends who, by their presence, act as references—“as a fellow woman, I approve of this man and voluntarily choose to associate with him”
LMR stands for Last Minute Resistance
kino basically means touching, even just socially
escalate means increasing the intensity of that touching
shit-test appears to refer to women testing men to see if they can be easily manipulated, and then discarding them if they are.
“direct game” seems to be what you refer to as tactlessness =)
I got nothing on subcom