I’m not knocking the the natural way, or direct game, building inner game, which you seem to have been gifted with a lot of.
No, what I had was non-neediness and non-reactivity, combined with empathy and intelligent conversation. My inner game actually sucked. I was non-needy and non-reactive because that was my response to fear of rejection. I believed no woman would ever really love me, so there was no point in pining over what I couldn’t have.
You could say I was following “The Tao of Steve”, as in “Be desireless, be excellent, be gone”… but not because I had reached some sort of true inner peace.
But let us suppose, for a moment, that you’re a guy who doesn’t start off naturally confident, and doesn’t live in the pjeby Shangri-La of abundant, sexually aggressive, confident, intelligent, high self-esteem women who always chase and want to date you.
I never said those women wanted to date me. A few did, most just wanted to get off or fulfill a fantasy. (To be clear, I didn’t sleep with these women or have intercourse with them; I almost exclusively saved “standard” sex for my LTRs or FWBs, not the girls who just wanted to experiment.)
Another thing is to completely throw your dignity out of the window and pay for sex.
If you look down on people who pay for sex (and by implication, on sex workers), this is part of your attitude problem. You believe you have no value, so you take paying as evidence to support this belief, while ignoring the fact that rock stars also pay for sex… as Charlie Sheen I believe put it, “you’re paying them to leave”.
So it’s not the act of paying for sex that throws out the dignity that you’re afraid you lack in the first place.
Getting into game with a healthy attitude is better, I think. This means realizing that some of the time, some girls want to be manipulated, and that if you don’t go out and take what you want, you won’t get it. But this doesn’t mean being an asshole—it just means realizing that you have to play the game.
You seem to be ignoring the part where manipulating doesn’t equal lying, and that being tactful, cool, and fun does not equal “manipulating”.… unless you view them through a frame where YOU are low-value!
Yes, eventually you’ll pick up so much confidence that you’ll be able to go natural and then yes, girls will pick up on this and start chasing you. But until that point, it will help to have some tactics under your belt.
You don’t even need confidence; I certainly never had it. Non-neediness and non-reactivity are plenty enough.
This is like saying “any man can be a millionaire by having $ 1million in his bank account”. But it’s really really hard to change from believing that you are low value to believing that you are high value.
You don’t need a trick—you just need to cultivate something of genuine value. What do you really have to offer women? In my case, it was conversation, understanding, and a certain class of sexual experiences. You might offer excitement and adventure. Another guy might be an artist or musician. Per the Tao of Steve, what are you “excellent” at? What could you be excellent at? Value is just being excellent at something, that offers a woman an experience.
People (not just women) want emotional experiences. They are bored and afraid and dissatisfied, for the most part. What can you give them?
Not as a trade, not as a “look at me I’m awesome”, but… what is part of your world that someone else would want to find out more about, or be a part of? I never flaunted my “fantasy fulfillment services”; I simply mentioned them in passing and never tried to talk anyone into making use of them. They had to ask me, and I was pretty tight-lipped about it, simply because I genuinely didn’t want to push it on anyone. I’d answer questions briefly, then return to whatever non-sexual topic we were on.
Then, later… sometimes much later… someone I mentioned it to would come back and make a more serious inquiry, at which point I’d tell them about my NLP theory of how you can create fantasy experiences for someone by interpreting one of their existing fantasies, and we were off to the races.
This worked for me precisely because it was not a technique. I really didn’t care. I hadn’t seen “The Tao Of Steve”, but I was desireless, I was excellent, I was gone.
This was not “inner game” or belief in my own value. It was just nonreactivity. Women don’t really care about confidence so much as they care about you NOT being creepy or needy… as long as you also have some sort of “excellence” to enjoy.
If it were easy, if you could just think “ah, I’m going to change the counter in my mind that represents self-value from low to high”, then a million dollar seduction industry wouldn’t exist.
Nor the self-help industry. The catch is that there’s more than one “counter”, and as I always say, the brain has no “view source” button to let you list them all. (Technically, they’re frames, not counters.)
By the way, I’m always looking for new and better ways to improve my inner game, so if you have any tips on how you got there, do share them with us.
My personal advice to you would be to ask what it is that you’re afraid is true about yourself. Not are you afraid of rejection or relationships or any of that, what are you afraid is true about you, specifically?
Low self-esteem, and especially the sort of compensating ideals you’re promoting, are usually based in fears of low-value qualities. But if you know what you’re afraid of and admit to it, you’ll have the chance to do something about it—either decide that it’s not really true of you, or that it is true, but you can change it.
Also, for whatever it’s worth, I seem to recall that the period in my life where women were most abundant and I was at my most non-reactive/confident, was when I was doing daily Zen meditation of at least 20 minutes, and doing an extended session once a week at the local Zen center.
My personal advice to you would be to ask what it is that you’re afraid is true about yourself. Not are you afraid of rejection or relationships or any of that, what are you afraid is true about you, specifically?
To be honest, nothing in particular. I genuinely thought hard about that question. I suppose in the past, when I was less mature, there were things.
Of course nowadays I practice almost exclusively direct game, and it works for me. And yes, you are still manipulating someone when you are doing direct game. You’re just doing it in a more natural and mutually enjoyable way. But I guess in the past, when I didn’t have that inner confidence, unreactivity and non-neediness that you’re talking about, direct wouldn’t have worked for me, so I needed the props and tricks of opinion openers, etcetera. Then I got laid a bit, then a bit more, then my inner unconfidence evaporated!
Of course nowadays I practice almost exclusively direct game, and it works for me.
So then WTF have you been advocating dishonesty, if you know it’s unnecessary?
And yes, you are still manipulating someone when you are doing direct game. You’re just doing it in a more natural and mutually enjoyable way.
I don’t think it really does anyone a service to frame it that way, except maybe as a way to convince somebody to buy your course so you can then talk them out of it.
Thing is, by framing it as “manipulation” to yourself, you are implying that you are not good enough to get a woman without manipulation—you are still maintaining a low-value frame, despite being nonreactive. You’re just framing yourself as “low-value with workarounds”, instead of “high value”.
If you frame it instead as you providing women with mystery, intrigue, drama, or something else that they value—then that immediately makes you a person of value… and flips over that “counter” in your brain that you asked about.
You’ve already done the hard work of getting competence and nonreactivity; now follow RSD Tyler’s example and realize that you really do have something to offer. Voila! You now have value.
The difference between “value” and “manipulation” is mostly in the mind of the manipulator, but it also gets subcommunicated. And I personally believe it’s better to spend a lot of time on flipping that switch, vs. learning all the many subcommunications that you otherwise have to mimic, because they’re not being generated automatically.
If it takes you 100 hours of work on yourself to flip the inner switch, it’s still 10 times more efficient than spending 1000 hours honing techniques that merely mimic the effect. Do the noobs a favor and don’t send them down the “dark path” needlessly; better yet, be Yoda and warn them about its seductive dangers. ;-)
The difference between “value” and “manipulation” is mostly in the mind of the manipulator,
Right, so first you have to learn how to manipulate women, then you realize that they like being manipulated, then you realize you’re doing them a service, then you realize that in this special case, the ability to manipulate people is a great and valuable thing to have, and it makes you a more interesting and exciting person to be around (not that you weren’t to start with), and once you’ve had this realization, you become a natural!
Of course we are starting to argue semantics now… as you say, the difference between “manipulation” and “alpha male behaviour” can be merely one of poetry. Likewise the difference between “mystery, intrigue” and “lying”.
I think that the key to getting good is to realize that sexual interaction in humans constitutes an exception to the rule that lying and manipulation are generally bad. We give them different names like “mystery and intrigue” or “dominant, confident behaviour” to flag this up.
Right, so first you have to learn how to manipulate women, then you realize that they like being manipulated, then you realize you’re doing them a service, then you realize that in this special case, the ability to manipulate people is a great and valuable thing to have, and it makes you a more interesting and exciting person to be around (not that you weren’t to start with), and once you’ve had this realization, you become a natural!
Or, you do what I did and assume that the only way women would be interested in you is if you have something of value to offer them, and then go about doing something to develop that value. Yes, it has taken me a long time to realize that I have value, just by virtue of being a unique person. However, I didn’t have to go through a “manipulation” stage to get there.
Instead, to the extent that you could call certain behavior options I have now “manipulation”, I chose to do them because of having an understanding of their value, and caring about the woman in question (my wife) enough to want to give that value to her.
So, in this particular example, it’s the exact opposite order to what you’re suggesting.
Of course we are starting to argue semantics now… as you say, the difference between “manipulation” and “alpha male behaviour” can be merely one of poetry.
Actually, it’s a matter of what your motivation is. Alpha males look out for the group, and do other useful things, rather than adopting those behaviors because it gets them laid. That’s the difference between manipulating and being genuine. (See also some of Eliezer’s posts about “adaptation executing” vs “fitness maximizing” for the psychology difference.)
No, what I had was non-neediness and non-reactivity, combined with empathy and intelligent conversation. My inner game actually sucked. I was non-needy and non-reactive because that was my response to fear of rejection. I believed no woman would ever really love me, so there was no point in pining over what I couldn’t have.
You could say I was following “The Tao of Steve”, as in “Be desireless, be excellent, be gone”… but not because I had reached some sort of true inner peace.
I never said those women wanted to date me. A few did, most just wanted to get off or fulfill a fantasy. (To be clear, I didn’t sleep with these women or have intercourse with them; I almost exclusively saved “standard” sex for my LTRs or FWBs, not the girls who just wanted to experiment.)
If you look down on people who pay for sex (and by implication, on sex workers), this is part of your attitude problem. You believe you have no value, so you take paying as evidence to support this belief, while ignoring the fact that rock stars also pay for sex… as Charlie Sheen I believe put it, “you’re paying them to leave”.
So it’s not the act of paying for sex that throws out the dignity that you’re afraid you lack in the first place.
You seem to be ignoring the part where manipulating doesn’t equal lying, and that being tactful, cool, and fun does not equal “manipulating”.… unless you view them through a frame where YOU are low-value!
You don’t even need confidence; I certainly never had it. Non-neediness and non-reactivity are plenty enough.
You don’t need a trick—you just need to cultivate something of genuine value. What do you really have to offer women? In my case, it was conversation, understanding, and a certain class of sexual experiences. You might offer excitement and adventure. Another guy might be an artist or musician. Per the Tao of Steve, what are you “excellent” at? What could you be excellent at? Value is just being excellent at something, that offers a woman an experience.
People (not just women) want emotional experiences. They are bored and afraid and dissatisfied, for the most part. What can you give them?
Not as a trade, not as a “look at me I’m awesome”, but… what is part of your world that someone else would want to find out more about, or be a part of? I never flaunted my “fantasy fulfillment services”; I simply mentioned them in passing and never tried to talk anyone into making use of them. They had to ask me, and I was pretty tight-lipped about it, simply because I genuinely didn’t want to push it on anyone. I’d answer questions briefly, then return to whatever non-sexual topic we were on.
Then, later… sometimes much later… someone I mentioned it to would come back and make a more serious inquiry, at which point I’d tell them about my NLP theory of how you can create fantasy experiences for someone by interpreting one of their existing fantasies, and we were off to the races.
This worked for me precisely because it was not a technique. I really didn’t care. I hadn’t seen “The Tao Of Steve”, but I was desireless, I was excellent, I was gone.
This was not “inner game” or belief in my own value. It was just nonreactivity. Women don’t really care about confidence so much as they care about you NOT being creepy or needy… as long as you also have some sort of “excellence” to enjoy.
Nor the self-help industry. The catch is that there’s more than one “counter”, and as I always say, the brain has no “view source” button to let you list them all. (Technically, they’re frames, not counters.)
My personal advice to you would be to ask what it is that you’re afraid is true about yourself. Not are you afraid of rejection or relationships or any of that, what are you afraid is true about you, specifically?
Low self-esteem, and especially the sort of compensating ideals you’re promoting, are usually based in fears of low-value qualities. But if you know what you’re afraid of and admit to it, you’ll have the chance to do something about it—either decide that it’s not really true of you, or that it is true, but you can change it.
Also, for whatever it’s worth, I seem to recall that the period in my life where women were most abundant and I was at my most non-reactive/confident, was when I was doing daily Zen meditation of at least 20 minutes, and doing an extended session once a week at the local Zen center.
To be honest, nothing in particular. I genuinely thought hard about that question. I suppose in the past, when I was less mature, there were things.
Of course nowadays I practice almost exclusively direct game, and it works for me. And yes, you are still manipulating someone when you are doing direct game. You’re just doing it in a more natural and mutually enjoyable way. But I guess in the past, when I didn’t have that inner confidence, unreactivity and non-neediness that you’re talking about, direct wouldn’t have worked for me, so I needed the props and tricks of opinion openers, etcetera. Then I got laid a bit, then a bit more, then my inner unconfidence evaporated!
So then WTF have you been advocating dishonesty, if you know it’s unnecessary?
I don’t think it really does anyone a service to frame it that way, except maybe as a way to convince somebody to buy your course so you can then talk them out of it.
Thing is, by framing it as “manipulation” to yourself, you are implying that you are not good enough to get a woman without manipulation—you are still maintaining a low-value frame, despite being nonreactive. You’re just framing yourself as “low-value with workarounds”, instead of “high value”.
If you frame it instead as you providing women with mystery, intrigue, drama, or something else that they value—then that immediately makes you a person of value… and flips over that “counter” in your brain that you asked about.
You’ve already done the hard work of getting competence and nonreactivity; now follow RSD Tyler’s example and realize that you really do have something to offer. Voila! You now have value.
The difference between “value” and “manipulation” is mostly in the mind of the manipulator, but it also gets subcommunicated. And I personally believe it’s better to spend a lot of time on flipping that switch, vs. learning all the many subcommunications that you otherwise have to mimic, because they’re not being generated automatically.
If it takes you 100 hours of work on yourself to flip the inner switch, it’s still 10 times more efficient than spending 1000 hours honing techniques that merely mimic the effect. Do the noobs a favor and don’t send them down the “dark path” needlessly; better yet, be Yoda and warn them about its seductive dangers. ;-)
Right, so first you have to learn how to manipulate women, then you realize that they like being manipulated, then you realize you’re doing them a service, then you realize that in this special case, the ability to manipulate people is a great and valuable thing to have, and it makes you a more interesting and exciting person to be around (not that you weren’t to start with), and once you’ve had this realization, you become a natural!
Of course we are starting to argue semantics now… as you say, the difference between “manipulation” and “alpha male behaviour” can be merely one of poetry. Likewise the difference between “mystery, intrigue” and “lying”.
I think that the key to getting good is to realize that sexual interaction in humans constitutes an exception to the rule that lying and manipulation are generally bad. We give them different names like “mystery and intrigue” or “dominant, confident behaviour” to flag this up.
Or, you do what I did and assume that the only way women would be interested in you is if you have something of value to offer them, and then go about doing something to develop that value. Yes, it has taken me a long time to realize that I have value, just by virtue of being a unique person. However, I didn’t have to go through a “manipulation” stage to get there.
Instead, to the extent that you could call certain behavior options I have now “manipulation”, I chose to do them because of having an understanding of their value, and caring about the woman in question (my wife) enough to want to give that value to her.
So, in this particular example, it’s the exact opposite order to what you’re suggesting.
Actually, it’s a matter of what your motivation is. Alpha males look out for the group, and do other useful things, rather than adopting those behaviors because it gets them laid. That’s the difference between manipulating and being genuine. (See also some of Eliezer’s posts about “adaptation executing” vs “fitness maximizing” for the psychology difference.)