Of course nowadays I practice almost exclusively direct game, and it works for me.
So then WTF have you been advocating dishonesty, if you know it’s unnecessary?
And yes, you are still manipulating someone when you are doing direct game. You’re just doing it in a more natural and mutually enjoyable way.
I don’t think it really does anyone a service to frame it that way, except maybe as a way to convince somebody to buy your course so you can then talk them out of it.
Thing is, by framing it as “manipulation” to yourself, you are implying that you are not good enough to get a woman without manipulation—you are still maintaining a low-value frame, despite being nonreactive. You’re just framing yourself as “low-value with workarounds”, instead of “high value”.
If you frame it instead as you providing women with mystery, intrigue, drama, or something else that they value—then that immediately makes you a person of value… and flips over that “counter” in your brain that you asked about.
You’ve already done the hard work of getting competence and nonreactivity; now follow RSD Tyler’s example and realize that you really do have something to offer. Voila! You now have value.
The difference between “value” and “manipulation” is mostly in the mind of the manipulator, but it also gets subcommunicated. And I personally believe it’s better to spend a lot of time on flipping that switch, vs. learning all the many subcommunications that you otherwise have to mimic, because they’re not being generated automatically.
If it takes you 100 hours of work on yourself to flip the inner switch, it’s still 10 times more efficient than spending 1000 hours honing techniques that merely mimic the effect. Do the noobs a favor and don’t send them down the “dark path” needlessly; better yet, be Yoda and warn them about its seductive dangers. ;-)
The difference between “value” and “manipulation” is mostly in the mind of the manipulator,
Right, so first you have to learn how to manipulate women, then you realize that they like being manipulated, then you realize you’re doing them a service, then you realize that in this special case, the ability to manipulate people is a great and valuable thing to have, and it makes you a more interesting and exciting person to be around (not that you weren’t to start with), and once you’ve had this realization, you become a natural!
Of course we are starting to argue semantics now… as you say, the difference between “manipulation” and “alpha male behaviour” can be merely one of poetry. Likewise the difference between “mystery, intrigue” and “lying”.
I think that the key to getting good is to realize that sexual interaction in humans constitutes an exception to the rule that lying and manipulation are generally bad. We give them different names like “mystery and intrigue” or “dominant, confident behaviour” to flag this up.
Right, so first you have to learn how to manipulate women, then you realize that they like being manipulated, then you realize you’re doing them a service, then you realize that in this special case, the ability to manipulate people is a great and valuable thing to have, and it makes you a more interesting and exciting person to be around (not that you weren’t to start with), and once you’ve had this realization, you become a natural!
Or, you do what I did and assume that the only way women would be interested in you is if you have something of value to offer them, and then go about doing something to develop that value. Yes, it has taken me a long time to realize that I have value, just by virtue of being a unique person. However, I didn’t have to go through a “manipulation” stage to get there.
Instead, to the extent that you could call certain behavior options I have now “manipulation”, I chose to do them because of having an understanding of their value, and caring about the woman in question (my wife) enough to want to give that value to her.
So, in this particular example, it’s the exact opposite order to what you’re suggesting.
Of course we are starting to argue semantics now… as you say, the difference between “manipulation” and “alpha male behaviour” can be merely one of poetry.
Actually, it’s a matter of what your motivation is. Alpha males look out for the group, and do other useful things, rather than adopting those behaviors because it gets them laid. That’s the difference between manipulating and being genuine. (See also some of Eliezer’s posts about “adaptation executing” vs “fitness maximizing” for the psychology difference.)
So then WTF have you been advocating dishonesty, if you know it’s unnecessary?
I don’t think it really does anyone a service to frame it that way, except maybe as a way to convince somebody to buy your course so you can then talk them out of it.
Thing is, by framing it as “manipulation” to yourself, you are implying that you are not good enough to get a woman without manipulation—you are still maintaining a low-value frame, despite being nonreactive. You’re just framing yourself as “low-value with workarounds”, instead of “high value”.
If you frame it instead as you providing women with mystery, intrigue, drama, or something else that they value—then that immediately makes you a person of value… and flips over that “counter” in your brain that you asked about.
You’ve already done the hard work of getting competence and nonreactivity; now follow RSD Tyler’s example and realize that you really do have something to offer. Voila! You now have value.
The difference between “value” and “manipulation” is mostly in the mind of the manipulator, but it also gets subcommunicated. And I personally believe it’s better to spend a lot of time on flipping that switch, vs. learning all the many subcommunications that you otherwise have to mimic, because they’re not being generated automatically.
If it takes you 100 hours of work on yourself to flip the inner switch, it’s still 10 times more efficient than spending 1000 hours honing techniques that merely mimic the effect. Do the noobs a favor and don’t send them down the “dark path” needlessly; better yet, be Yoda and warn them about its seductive dangers. ;-)
Right, so first you have to learn how to manipulate women, then you realize that they like being manipulated, then you realize you’re doing them a service, then you realize that in this special case, the ability to manipulate people is a great and valuable thing to have, and it makes you a more interesting and exciting person to be around (not that you weren’t to start with), and once you’ve had this realization, you become a natural!
Of course we are starting to argue semantics now… as you say, the difference between “manipulation” and “alpha male behaviour” can be merely one of poetry. Likewise the difference between “mystery, intrigue” and “lying”.
I think that the key to getting good is to realize that sexual interaction in humans constitutes an exception to the rule that lying and manipulation are generally bad. We give them different names like “mystery and intrigue” or “dominant, confident behaviour” to flag this up.
Or, you do what I did and assume that the only way women would be interested in you is if you have something of value to offer them, and then go about doing something to develop that value. Yes, it has taken me a long time to realize that I have value, just by virtue of being a unique person. However, I didn’t have to go through a “manipulation” stage to get there.
Instead, to the extent that you could call certain behavior options I have now “manipulation”, I chose to do them because of having an understanding of their value, and caring about the woman in question (my wife) enough to want to give that value to her.
So, in this particular example, it’s the exact opposite order to what you’re suggesting.
Actually, it’s a matter of what your motivation is. Alpha males look out for the group, and do other useful things, rather than adopting those behaviors because it gets them laid. That’s the difference between manipulating and being genuine. (See also some of Eliezer’s posts about “adaptation executing” vs “fitness maximizing” for the psychology difference.)