Am I the only one to whom ‘what’s wrong with raping someone if they don’t get injured, traumatized, pregnant, nor get STDs’ sounds a lot like ‘what’s wrong with driving at 100 km/h while drunk, sleep-deprived and talking on the phone if you don’t have any accidents’?
You obviously missed the point completely. Hanson’s thought experiment wasn’t claiming there would be nothing wrong with committing that type of rape, his point was that it would be traumatic in the same way being cuckolded is traumatic. And yet committing that type of rape is illegal, while cuckolding is not even a misdemeanor. His point wasn’t to denigrate the psychological harm of rape, it was to investigate the roots of the difference in the way these harms are treated.
It’s not the same thing, rape is still a violation of bodily integrity even if there’s no health damage of memories.
If a sterile man without STDs drugs a women to be unconscious and then rapes her, that’s still wrong and still should be punished strongly by law.
The sacred value of a woman’s control over her own body is still violated. The fact that Hanson doesn’t address that sacred value is what makes his post a bit creepy.
It isn’t just a matter of “sacred values”. It’s a matter of the consequences of making the statement.
“What’s wrong with doing if ?” will predictably have the effect, on the margin, of encouraging people to do even when don’t actually hold. We can predict this for reasons closely analogous to why knowing about biases can hurt people: Arming people with more rationalizations for bad things that they already were tempted to do will generally make them worse, not better.
Conducting motivated search for conditions under which something normally very harmful can be justified as barely non-harmful is the sort of thing someone would do, in conversation, if they wanted to negotiate down the badness of a specific act.
“What I did isn’t real reckless driving. In real reckless driving — the maximally bad sort — the driver has to be driving too fast, while drunk, sleep-deprived, and talking on the phone. Me, I was only sleep-deprived. So stop treating me like my drugged-out ass ran over a dozen schoolkids or something.”
(See actual political discussions of “real rape”.)
Sacred values is a term out of modern decision theory. Putting quotes around it is like putting quotes around cognitive bias.
“What’s wrong with doing if ?” will predictably have the effect, on the margin, of encouraging people to do even when don’t actually hold.
I don’t think that’s a strong argument. It’s quite useful to play out scenarios of “is X still a bad idea if we change Y” to understand why we think X is a bad idea. It’s how you do reductionist analysis. You reduce something into separate parts to see which of those parts is the real issue.
If I say: “Stealing is bad but there are cases where a person has to steal to avoid starvation.”, that’s a permissible statement. We don’t ban that kind of analysis just because stealing is generally bad.
(See actual political discussions of “real rape”.)
I think it’s quite foolish to believe that a societal debate about what rape happens to be is bad when your goal is to reduce rape.
Tabooing that discussion prevents people to speak in polite company openly about issues of consent and as a result a lot of people don’t think deeply about those issues and make bad decisions.
It’s silly to try to raise rape awareness while at the same time wanting to prevent the topic from getting discussed.
(See actual political discussions of “real rape”.)
Which is extremely idiotic and mostly seems to consist of feminists attempting to get away with further and further expanding the definition of “rape” while keeping the word’s connotations the same.
The sacred value of a woman’s control over her own body is still violated.
Would you accept the same argument for cuckoldry violating the sacredness value of the marriage? If so then wasn’t Hanson comparing two sacredness violations? If not how do you decide which sacredness values to accept?
Would you accept the same argument for cuckoldry violating the sacredness value of the marriage? If so then wasn’t Hanson comparing two sacredness violations?
No, Hanson didn’t speak about sacred values at all. If one wants to make the argument that marriage is sacred and violations should be punished then the logical conclusion are laws that criminalize adultery. Hanson is not in favor of those.
However, one difference is that in the rape example, some people in the audience are more likely to see themselves in the role of the rapist (“Is he saying that I should be allowed to get away with that, if it really caused no harm?”) whereas others are more likely to see themselves in the role of the rape victim (“Is he saying that someone should be allowed to do that to me, if they can explain away my objections?”).
1. Some economists (including Robin Hanson) said some things using rape as an example to illustrate abstract theoretical points, which pissed a lot of people off to whom rape is not an abstract matter. One of them (Steve Landsburg) also participated in sexual harassment of an activist. Some other economists (including Lawrence Summers) claimed that women are (relatively) bad at math and science.
Some yet other economists actually performed a study and found that economics has “a persistent sex gap in promotion that cannot be readily explained by productivity differences” and that “the average female economist—unlike the average female physicist or mathematician—is likely to have a better publication record than her male peers”, and thus that economics as an institution is biased against women practitioners.
2. Robin Hanson vigorously agrees that economics as an institution is biased against women practitioners, but doesn’t think his use of rape as a theoretical example has anything to do with that, and certainly that he didn’t intend to minimize rape. Just the opposite: “Just as people who accuse others of being like Hitler do not usually intend to praise Hitler, people who compare other harms to rape usually intend to emphasize how big are those other harms, not how small is rape.” He cites professional racist Steve Sailer in his defense, because that’s really going to change anyone’s minds.
3. Steve Sailer calls a bunch of people vile names. Yawn.
My conclusion: Robin Hanson is probably not personally responsible for the observed phenomenon of economics as an institution being biased against women practitioners. But the level of instrumental rationality and/or good rhetoric demonstrated here is not super great. If you want to convince people that you are not a bigot, why cite a bigot’s defense of you as his ally?
Second, it isn’t clear to me that the “badness” of using rape as a theoretical example has anything to do with minimizing it. Rather, it has to do with choosing to offhandedly mention something really awful which is linked to the victimization of a fraction of your students or readers. Being constantly squicked by gratuitous scary examples that selectively target you is not great for the concentration.
In a book about management that my partner S was reading recently, there was an analogy where managers are compared to ship captains. A page later, bad managers are described as “whipping” their underlings — that is, using punishment as an incentive. Now, S is from the West Indies, and the proximity of “ship captain” and “whipping” immediately reminded her of the slave trade, and gave her a pretty heavy-duty squick reaction. Does this mean the authors of the book intended to turn people off of being managers through stereotype threat or something? No. Does it mean they even intended to remind anyone of the slave trade? No. Does it mean that these analogies cumulatively had the effect of distracting S from the point the authors were trying to make? Yes.
If the authors were challenged on this, would they resort to citing professional racists in their defense? Probably not; they’d probably say something like “oops, wow, that was totally unintentional and really embarrassing.”
Okay, how about “Steve Landsburg justified and participated in calling someone a lot of sexual slurs in response to that person’s testimony before Congress”?
(I’ll admit that “sexual harassment” is a pretty vague term and thus ill-chosen. Landsburg’s behavior was still detestable and vile by either progressive or conservative standards of acceptable public conduct: he managed to be both a frothing sexist and an ungentlemanly boor.)
Steve Landsburg justified and participated in calling someone a lot of sexual slurs
Still false. Easily verifiably, objectively, false.
At best, you have a reckless disregard for the truth. I’m out.
EDIT: Just to be clear for others reading this, the post has never been deleted, so anyone can check it right here. Landsburg does not call Fluke either a slut or a prostitute. He calls her an “extortionist with an overweening sense of entitlement” which is no compliment, but not a sexual slur. You will note that even Noah Smith, in his vile hit piece, does not accuse Landsburg of sexual slurs. Instead he says that Landsburg ‘seemed to call pro-contraception activist Sandra Fluke a “prostitute”’ (italics mine). Why this “seemed”? Because if you read the post, you’ll note that Landsburg explicitly stated that calling Fluke a prostitute was wrong! Yet people who I can only assume engaged in deliberate misreading used it to accuse him of calling her a prostitute, and Smith now piggybacks on those accusations to say “seemed” about a statement that he knows is a tawdry lie—but by using that word, he can claim he never said anything false himself.
It’s disgusting, and Smith, and you, should be ashamed of yourselves.
Stretching terms like “sexual harassment” to apply them to more people doesn’t do good. It weakens them when they are used in the proper context. There no reason to call everything that’s not acceptable public conduct “sexual harassment”.
Still, the problem remains. If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. Hanson’s choice to associate himself — and his audience — with people who do nasty and rude things in public and with people who espouse and practice harming others for their views is unfortunate. It is especially unfortunate in this context; it thoroughly undermines his apparent attempt to dissociate himself from some of the same.
I think vague is a cop out. The term does have a clear meaning. It doesn’t exist that you can throw it out as a slur. The fact that you incorrectly slur other people to complain about them engaging in slurring has it’s irony.
Speaking of Social Justice Warriors (SJW’s) versus a man familiar to many of us:
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-11-21/economics-is-a-dismal-science-for-women
http://www.overcomingbias.com/2014/11/hanson-loves-moose-caca.html
http://www.unz.com/isteve/noah-smith-tries-to-sic-shirtstorm-mob-on-poor-robin-hanson/
Am I the only one to whom ‘what’s wrong with raping someone if they don’t get injured, traumatized, pregnant, nor get STDs’ sounds a lot like ‘what’s wrong with driving at 100 km/h while drunk, sleep-deprived and talking on the phone if you don’t have any accidents’?
You obviously missed the point completely. Hanson’s thought experiment wasn’t claiming there would be nothing wrong with committing that type of rape, his point was that it would be traumatic in the same way being cuckolded is traumatic. And yet committing that type of rape is illegal, while cuckolding is not even a misdemeanor. His point wasn’t to denigrate the psychological harm of rape, it was to investigate the roots of the difference in the way these harms are treated.
It’s not the same thing, rape is still a violation of bodily integrity even if there’s no health damage of memories.
If a sterile man without STDs drugs a women to be unconscious and then rapes her, that’s still wrong and still should be punished strongly by law. The sacred value of a woman’s control over her own body is still violated. The fact that Hanson doesn’t address that sacred value is what makes his post a bit creepy.
It isn’t just a matter of “sacred values”. It’s a matter of the consequences of making the statement.
“What’s wrong with doing if ?” will predictably have the effect, on the margin, of encouraging people to do even when don’t actually hold. We can predict this for reasons closely analogous to why knowing about biases can hurt people: Arming people with more rationalizations for bad things that they already were tempted to do will generally make them worse, not better.
Conducting motivated search for conditions under which something normally very harmful can be justified as barely non-harmful is the sort of thing someone would do, in conversation, if they wanted to negotiate down the badness of a specific act.
“What I did isn’t real reckless driving. In real reckless driving — the maximally bad sort — the driver has to be driving too fast, while drunk, sleep-deprived, and talking on the phone. Me, I was only sleep-deprived. So stop treating me like my drugged-out ass ran over a dozen schoolkids or something.”
(See actual political discussions of “real rape”.)
Sacred values is a term out of modern decision theory. Putting quotes around it is like putting quotes around cognitive bias.
I don’t think that’s a strong argument. It’s quite useful to play out scenarios of “is X still a bad idea if we change Y” to understand why we think X is a bad idea. It’s how you do reductionist analysis. You reduce something into separate parts to see which of those parts is the real issue.
If I say: “Stealing is bad but there are cases where a person has to steal to avoid starvation.”, that’s a permissible statement. We don’t ban that kind of analysis just because stealing is generally bad.
I think it’s quite foolish to believe that a societal debate about what rape happens to be is bad when your goal is to reduce rape. Tabooing that discussion prevents people to speak in polite company openly about issues of consent and as a result a lot of people don’t think deeply about those issues and make bad decisions.
It’s silly to try to raise rape awareness while at the same time wanting to prevent the topic from getting discussed.
Which is extremely idiotic and mostly seems to consist of feminists attempting to get away with further and further expanding the definition of “rape” while keeping the word’s connotations the same.
Would you accept the same argument for cuckoldry violating the sacredness value of the marriage? If so then wasn’t Hanson comparing two sacredness violations? If not how do you decide which sacredness values to accept?
No, Hanson didn’t speak about sacred values at all. If one wants to make the argument that marriage is sacred and violations should be punished then the logical conclusion are laws that criminalize adultery. Hanson is not in favor of those.
Yes, a little bit.
However, one difference is that in the rape example, some people in the audience are more likely to see themselves in the role of the rapist (“Is he saying that I should be allowed to get away with that, if it really caused no harm?”) whereas others are more likely to see themselves in the role of the rape victim (“Is he saying that someone should be allowed to do that to me, if they can explain away my objections?”).
Summary:
1. Some economists (including Robin Hanson) said some things using rape as an example to illustrate abstract theoretical points, which pissed a lot of people off to whom rape is not an abstract matter. One of them (Steve Landsburg) also participated in sexual harassment of an activist. Some other economists (including Lawrence Summers) claimed that women are (relatively) bad at math and science.
Some yet other economists actually performed a study and found that economics has “a persistent sex gap in promotion that cannot be readily explained by productivity differences” and that “the average female economist—unlike the average female physicist or mathematician—is likely to have a better publication record than her male peers”, and thus that economics as an institution is biased against women practitioners.
2. Robin Hanson vigorously agrees that economics as an institution is biased against women practitioners, but doesn’t think his use of rape as a theoretical example has anything to do with that, and certainly that he didn’t intend to minimize rape. Just the opposite: “Just as people who accuse others of being like Hitler do not usually intend to praise Hitler, people who compare other harms to rape usually intend to emphasize how big are those other harms, not how small is rape.” He cites professional racist Steve Sailer in his defense, because that’s really going to change anyone’s minds.
3. Steve Sailer calls a bunch of people vile names. Yawn.
My conclusion: Robin Hanson is probably not personally responsible for the observed phenomenon of economics as an institution being biased against women practitioners. But the level of instrumental rationality and/or good rhetoric demonstrated here is not super great. If you want to convince people that you are not a bigot, why cite a bigot’s defense of you as his ally?
Second, it isn’t clear to me that the “badness” of using rape as a theoretical example has anything to do with minimizing it. Rather, it has to do with choosing to offhandedly mention something really awful which is linked to the victimization of a fraction of your students or readers. Being constantly squicked by gratuitous scary examples that selectively target you is not great for the concentration.
In a book about management that my partner S was reading recently, there was an analogy where managers are compared to ship captains. A page later, bad managers are described as “whipping” their underlings — that is, using punishment as an incentive. Now, S is from the West Indies, and the proximity of “ship captain” and “whipping” immediately reminded her of the slave trade, and gave her a pretty heavy-duty squick reaction. Does this mean the authors of the book intended to turn people off of being managers through stereotype threat or something? No. Does it mean they even intended to remind anyone of the slave trade? No. Does it mean that these analogies cumulatively had the effect of distracting S from the point the authors were trying to make? Yes.
If the authors were challenged on this, would they resort to citing professional racists in their defense? Probably not; they’d probably say something like “oops, wow, that was totally unintentional and really embarrassing.”
This is so obviously and egregiously false that it makes me question your bona fides.
Okay, how about “Steve Landsburg justified and participated in calling someone a lot of sexual slurs in response to that person’s testimony before Congress”?
(I’ll admit that “sexual harassment” is a pretty vague term and thus ill-chosen. Landsburg’s behavior was still detestable and vile by either progressive or conservative standards of acceptable public conduct: he managed to be both a frothing sexist and an ungentlemanly boor.)
Still false. Easily verifiably, objectively, false.
At best, you have a reckless disregard for the truth. I’m out.
EDIT: Just to be clear for others reading this, the post has never been deleted, so anyone can check it right here. Landsburg does not call Fluke either a slut or a prostitute. He calls her an “extortionist with an overweening sense of entitlement” which is no compliment, but not a sexual slur. You will note that even Noah Smith, in his vile hit piece, does not accuse Landsburg of sexual slurs. Instead he says that Landsburg ‘seemed to call pro-contraception activist Sandra Fluke a “prostitute”’ (italics mine). Why this “seemed”? Because if you read the post, you’ll note that Landsburg explicitly stated that calling Fluke a prostitute was wrong! Yet people who I can only assume engaged in deliberate misreading used it to accuse him of calling her a prostitute, and Smith now piggybacks on those accusations to say “seemed” about a statement that he knows is a tawdry lie—but by using that word, he can claim he never said anything false himself.
It’s disgusting, and Smith, and you, should be ashamed of yourselves.
Stretching terms like “sexual harassment” to apply them to more people doesn’t do good. It weakens them when they are used in the proper context. There no reason to call everything that’s not acceptable public conduct “sexual harassment”.
As I said, vague and ill-chosen.
Still, the problem remains. If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. Hanson’s choice to associate himself — and his audience — with people who do nasty and rude things in public and with people who espouse and practice harming others for their views is unfortunate. It is especially unfortunate in this context; it thoroughly undermines his apparent attempt to dissociate himself from some of the same.
I think vague is a cop out. The term does have a clear meaning. It doesn’t exist that you can throw it out as a slur. The fact that you incorrectly slur other people to complain about them engaging in slurring has it’s irony.
I think falsely accusing someone of sexual harassment is detestable and vile.
I wonder if Eliezer will now attempt to disassociate himself from Hanson like he has the NRx’s.