Sure. I should have been clearer. I guess I’m more curious about the degree to which this exists because of the internet. Assuming it’s true that self-esteem takes a negative hit (at least initially) due to realizing you’re a small fish in a huge pond, does the availability of information compound that effect to a level where it is exponentially consequential?
Ultimately, I think it’s a very natural and spiritual process to go through—to realize you are, in fact, not the center of the universe. But it’s been a more gradual process in our history. Nowadays, it’s like saturation in the idea that “I suck. I’m boring. I’m ugly” 24⁄7 at the age of 10 or before.
Let’s assume there is a social comparison element to self-esteem. Whether it be strength, intelligence, tennis ability, driving skills, beauty—People reference where they stand in any given dimension among the total population to gauge how they feel about themselves.
If you are in the 99th percentile of a good trait based on the portion of the population you’re aware of, you generally feel good about identifying with that. Given awareness of a large enough population, you might fall from 99th to the 50th percentile. Or to the 10th. Your trait was unchanged, but your awareness of it’s rank among the whole population changed.
Is it possible this exponential leap in the sheer number of people we can (or are almost forced to) compare ourselves because of the internet corresponds directly to the hit our self-esteem takes? If so, how severe are the consequences?
I’ve read some about ‘Facebook Depression’, where one of the components is the envy and disillusionment that comes from seeing how everyone else is doing cool things while you’re sitting at home. I was just wondering about people’s thoughts about the Internet writ large.
Is it possible this exponential leap in the sheer number of people we can (or are almost forced to) compare ourselves because of the internet corresponds directly to the hit our self-esteem takes?
First, people differentiate between the online world and the meatspace world. If I am the prettiest girl at school, I may be aware that Kim Kardashian’s butt almost broke the internet and I (hopefully) realize that my butt does not have the same capabilities, but I am still the prettiest girl at my school. “Population” is different and here the relevant metric is closeness to you. Comparing yourself to people you meet every day is rather different from comparing yourself to pop star pictures on a screen.
Second, this whole self-esteem thing is driven by System 1 and System 1 is pretty bad at large numbers. In fact, I suspect that that System 1 counts like this: one, two, three, Miller’s number, ~12, ~30, Dunbar’s number, many (see e.g. this). In this progression the jump from 1 million to 10 million doesn’t happen—both are “many”.
First, people differentiate between the online world and the meatspace world.
Of course. But I’m not sure they are able to fully separate the two. Internet has some effect, right?
If I am the prettiest girl at school, I may be aware that Kim Kardashian’s butt almost broke the internet and I (hopefully) realize that my butt does not have the same capabilities, but I am still the prettiest girl at my school.
True. And people will always enjoy benefits from being the biggest fish in their particular pond, whatever population defines that.
“Population” is different and here the relevant metric is closeness to you.
A person may believe they are in the 99th percentile by assuming the population they are in is representative of the global population. Even if this isn’t true, there will be zero loss of self-esteem without sufficient spread of information, since said person may never become aware of the objective reality that they are in fact in, say, the bottom 20%.
Comparing yourself to people you meet every day is rather different from comparing yourself to pop star pictures on a screen.
It certainly has, we are only discussing its magnitude.
Your language left it unclear to me whether you thought the differentiation to be total.
For example, you interact with the former but you do not with the latter.
Can you explain how that effects anything? (In fact, I’ve seen cases to the contrary of what you seems to be suggesting all the time. People often idolize pop stars they’ve never met and think of them as flawless...due, in some part, to the fact they don’t get to see them up close in their unedited regular-ness.)
I didn’t get internet access until I was almost in my 20s. So I grew up with certain talents where friends/family would consistently tell me that I was the best at what I did. Nowadays, you can go to online discussion boards where people who are the best of the best in field X congregate and see just how “average” you are in that bigger pond.
Though I was good enough to get into specialized high school/colleges for that, I chose not to go that route. I’m guessing that the same sort of seeing how average I was in that larger pond where everyone is at the top of their game would have happened anyway had I gone to those specialized schools.
Nowadays, it’s like saturation in the idea that “I suck. I’m boring. I’m ugly” 24⁄7 at the age of 10 or before.
This is why people should move to tumblr, where the people know they’re boring and ugly and celebrate that fact :-)
(I’m joking, but in my experience the LW-tumblr space is very accepting of and open about defects like that. Despite the insistence of calling everyone cute.)
I’m not if it works with physical attractiveness, but in case of intellectual adequacy, I’m just not letting any internal doubts in my competence to interfere with external confidence. Even if I suspect that I’m not as smart as people around me, I still act exactly as if I am.
Sure. I should have been clearer. I guess I’m more curious about the degree to which this exists because of the internet. Assuming it’s true that self-esteem takes a negative hit (at least initially) due to realizing you’re a small fish in a huge pond, does the availability of information compound that effect to a level where it is exponentially consequential?
Ultimately, I think it’s a very natural and spiritual process to go through—to realize you are, in fact, not the center of the universe. But it’s been a more gradual process in our history. Nowadays, it’s like saturation in the idea that “I suck. I’m boring. I’m ugly” 24⁄7 at the age of 10 or before.
Could you, please, debuzzwordify your question and add some meaning to it?
I’ll try to be more clear. No promises.
Let’s assume there is a social comparison element to self-esteem. Whether it be strength, intelligence, tennis ability, driving skills, beauty—People reference where they stand in any given dimension among the total population to gauge how they feel about themselves.
If you are in the 99th percentile of a good trait based on the portion of the population you’re aware of, you generally feel good about identifying with that. Given awareness of a large enough population, you might fall from 99th to the 50th percentile. Or to the 10th. Your trait was unchanged, but your awareness of it’s rank among the whole population changed.
Is it possible this exponential leap in the sheer number of people we can (or are almost forced to) compare ourselves because of the internet corresponds directly to the hit our self-esteem takes? If so, how severe are the consequences?
I’ve read some about ‘Facebook Depression’, where one of the components is the envy and disillusionment that comes from seeing how everyone else is doing cool things while you’re sitting at home. I was just wondering about people’s thoughts about the Internet writ large.
First, people differentiate between the online world and the meatspace world. If I am the prettiest girl at school, I may be aware that Kim Kardashian’s butt almost broke the internet and I (hopefully) realize that my butt does not have the same capabilities, but I am still the prettiest girl at my school. “Population” is different and here the relevant metric is closeness to you. Comparing yourself to people you meet every day is rather different from comparing yourself to pop star pictures on a screen.
Second, this whole self-esteem thing is driven by System 1 and System 1 is pretty bad at large numbers. In fact, I suspect that that System 1 counts like this: one, two, three, Miller’s number, ~12, ~30, Dunbar’s number, many (see e.g. this). In this progression the jump from 1 million to 10 million doesn’t happen—both are “many”.
Of course. But I’m not sure they are able to fully separate the two. Internet has some effect, right?
True. And people will always enjoy benefits from being the biggest fish in their particular pond, whatever population defines that.
A person may believe they are in the 99th percentile by assuming the population they are in is representative of the global population. Even if this isn’t true, there will be zero loss of self-esteem without sufficient spread of information, since said person may never become aware of the objective reality that they are in fact in, say, the bottom 20%.
Why?
It certainly has, we are only discussing its magnitude.
For example, you interact with the former but you do not with the latter.
Your language left it unclear to me whether you thought the differentiation to be total.
Can you explain how that effects anything? (In fact, I’ve seen cases to the contrary of what you seems to be suggesting all the time. People often idolize pop stars they’ve never met and think of them as flawless...due, in some part, to the fact they don’t get to see them up close in their unedited regular-ness.)
I think I understand what you’re talking about.
I didn’t get internet access until I was almost in my 20s. So I grew up with certain talents where friends/family would consistently tell me that I was the best at what I did. Nowadays, you can go to online discussion boards where people who are the best of the best in field X congregate and see just how “average” you are in that bigger pond.
Though I was good enough to get into specialized high school/colleges for that, I chose not to go that route. I’m guessing that the same sort of seeing how average I was in that larger pond where everyone is at the top of their game would have happened anyway had I gone to those specialized schools.
This is why people should move to tumblr, where the people know they’re boring and ugly and celebrate that fact :-)
(I’m joking, but in my experience the LW-tumblr space is very accepting of and open about defects like that. Despite the insistence of calling everyone cute.)
I’m not if it works with physical attractiveness, but in case of intellectual adequacy, I’m just not letting any internal doubts in my competence to interfere with external confidence. Even if I suspect that I’m not as smart as people around me, I still act exactly as if I am.