You miss an important issue, which is the western concept as speech as a right. The Folsom street fair can have a promo poster of the last supper as Jesus as a naked black dude surrounded by transvestites, dominatrixes, and sex toys, and no major Christian organization will propose that anyone should be killed. They may try to get funding taken away from the fair, but that’s their right. Westerners have a concept of appropriate levels of conflict, and if someone violates them, we want to punish them. If someone asks me politely to keep it down, I probably will. If they tell mento shut up or they’ll kick my ass, my instinct is to talk even louder (especially if they’re bluffing). This is sensible as annoy of punishing improper behavior.
I also take issue with your characterization of offense as pain. In some cases—where it’s directed at someone, like racial slurs, it is. But in cases of taking offense at untethered actions, pain isn’t accurate. It’s not exactly painful when, say, a Klansmen sees an interracial couple, even if he finds their behaviour offensive. And even if it were, it seems obvious to menthat the couple should not allow that to affect their behaviour. If the Brits in your example just got arbitrarily angry about seeing trout pictures, I’m not sure the same reaction follows. Perhaps if you taboo offense, you get a more coherent picture of two separate emotional reactions.
I would like to believe the Klansman (I was considering changing this to Klansperson, but political correctness is probably inappropriate in this situation) doesn’t feel anything like real suffering when he sees an interracial couple, but I have no evidence for this except my desire to sweep his feelings under the rug so I don’t have to use them in ethical calculus.
For example, I am strongly pro gay rights and gay marriage, but I admit that seeing public displays of affection between gays gives me a negative visceral reaction more than the same displays among straights do. If I could self-modify to remove this feeling I’d do so in a second, but given that I can’t self-modify it seems like this preference is worthy of utilitarian respect; eg insofar as they want to be nice to me, gay people should avoid PDAs around me when it’s not too inconvenient for them (and if gay people have the same feeling in reverse, straight people who are nice should avoid hetero PDAs around them).
I have no reason to think I can model Klansmen well, but when I try, I imagine their feelings around an interracial couple as being a lot like my feeling around gay people having PDAs.
“I have no reason to think I can model Klansmen well, but when I try, I imagine their feelings around an interracial couple as being a lot like my feeling around gay people having PDAs.”
Yes, except the feelings of the Klansman are far stronger—more similar in intensity to the feelings of many muslims toward depictions of Mohammed.
“f I could self-modify to remove this feeling I’d do so in a second, but given that I can’t self-modify …”
From my own experience I suspect you could self-modify but have insufficient incentive to do so. (That’s not intended as a criticism.) I once had a very strong revulsion to gay PDAs, now I have a very mild aversion to it, perhaps similar to what you describe:
“I admit that seeing public displays of affection between gays gives me a negative visceral reaction more than the same displays among straights do”.
Since you are apparently behaving decently toward gays and not massively uncomfortable in most situations with them there’s not much reason to change. No doubt you have bigger fish to fry.
I feel similar to that but I’m confident that my mild aversion would decrease if I became close friends with a gay couple and spent a lot of time with them. My aversion would easily be swamped by more important values.
I agree. When I hear people say the equivalent of “I can’t self-modify” I always want to ask “what have you tried so far,” and “how long have tried for.” Normally that answer is not much(only a few approaches) and not very long. It often comes from lack of incentives and a belief equivalent to “thats just the way I am.”
That’s consistent with the point I was making, but let me dial back a bit.
I don’t want to commit the Typical Mind Fallacy by generalizing too much from one example. In recent years I’ve realized more and more that my mind works in a fashion that is not typical of most people I’ve met. Some things which are very easy for me seem very difficult for others, and some things difficult for me seem easy for them.
Options available to one are not necessarily available to others.
It’s fine to offer my experience but I’d do better to be more conservative about speculation on the options available to other particular individuals. Yvain is obviously a top poster here who I assume has done a lot of introspection and thought a lot about self modification so it was cheeky of me to assume I might know more about how he can self-modify than he does—in one of my first posts.
Interesting. If I am reading your post correctly, then I also might have committed a Mind Projection Fallacy when I read your post, projecting lack of assumption when there was some.
it was cheeky of me to assume I might know more about how he can self-modify than he does—in one of my first posts.
From your post I thought you were expressing that at one point you reacted to gay affection similar to what he described and similarly thought that you could not self modify. You now know that you can so it makes sense to spread the news and method to someone who thinks they can not(who would probably want to if they could) and might be in a similar position you once were and might apply the same solution. Of course maybe Yvain is not in a similar situation and your solution would not apply. You might know more, but there is a better chance that the two experiences do no overlap.
My response comes from the use of “can’t self-modify” rather then “can’t self-modify due to lack of time/resources,” “my continuing efforts have not yet borne fruit,” “I have tried all of my ideas and I am seek new ones,” “other projects consume my time and it is not currently worthwhile to pursue,” and etc. I have seen many people put road blocks in front of themselves by saying “can’t” which often reenforces the belief in “can’t” rather then staying cognizant of the conditions that make something unworthy of investment.
It may be cheeky to assume that you know weather this particular self modification is worth the resource use to Yvain, but it is not cheeky ask for more details(which are only for Yvain to share at his discretion) or offer personal experiences that Yvain may glen some insight or solution from.
“From your post I thought you were expressing that at one point you reacted to gay affection similar to what he described and similarly thought that you could not self modify. You now know that you can so it makes sense to spread the news and method to someone who thinks they can not(who would probably want to if they could) and might be in a similar position you once were and might apply the same solution.”
That’s all correct. But...
“My response comes from the use of “can’t self-modify” rather then “can’t self-modify due to lack of time/resources,” “my continuing efforts have not yet borne fruit,” “I have tried all of my ideas and I am seek new ones,” “other projects consume my time and it is not currently worthwhile to pursue,” and etc. I have seen many people put road blocks in front of themselves by saying “can’t” which often reenforces the belief in “can’t” rather then staying cognizant of the conditions that make something unworthy of investment.”
...on reflection it seemed unlikely to me that pretty much all of this hadn’t occurred to him. And I didn’t have much more to offer—I changed my mind over time by thinking about it.
Considering his involvement with LW, which is all about self modification, I think the reasonable interpretation of “I’d modify this in a minute but I can’t” is approximately “I’ve tried to modify this without success”, not ” I think this kind of change is impossible”. What I characterized as cheeky was my reading in of the latter interpretation.
I don’t have any further advice that shouldn’t be obvious. And like I said I’ve developed an appreciation that some things are a lot harder for people than others. Weird little things in many cases.
How should this interact with people who are interested in seeing the display in question? (E.g. I once made out with a girl on a bus full of people and we got lots of, er, positive attention. How should I have weighted that vs. your discomfort with public displays of gay affection if you had been on the bus with us?)
I just realized that when I said “gay”, I meant “gay male”.
Although to answer your question, you’d have to sum up the positive and negative preferences of people who might see you. I expect you’d probably be in the clear at a college pub, less so at the Retired Baptist Womens’ Convention.
I just realized that when I said “gay”, I meant “gay male”.
Yeah, I thought that might be it. (Of course, when I see gay guys being affectionate my response is “awwwwwww”, so the same sort of question can be constructed.)
insofar as they want to be nice to me, gay people should avoid PDAs around me when it’s not too inconvenient for them
It seems to me that encouraging this sort of behavior has many, much larger consequences that you either aren’t thinking of or are deliberately omitting. Consider, for example, the closeted classmate of the gay couple, who knows that they are gay and takes a bit of strength from seeing them express their love publicly—it gives him hope that one day he can do the same. Upon the gay couple taking your advice, however, he sees that even people who proclaim themselves his ally (you) don’t actually want him to be affectionate with people of his sex (this is by far the most common interpretation of your request, in my ample experience. Recall that in this framework your intention doesn’t matter, merely its effects). On the contrary, he sees you and people like you punishing gay behavior and not doing the same to equivalent straight behavior (note that you don’t request straights not to have PDAs, you merely think it OK for others to do so, and in an environment where gay PDAs have already been shot down as inappropriate, this is an extremely risky request for the closeted fellow to make). Thus, this heavily encourages people to remain closeted, which is a very harmful condition. So much moreso than being offended that I venture to say that I cannot think of an offense I would not inflict if it meant that a frightened, closeted queer* could come out without negative consequences.
Edit: I am leaving the following sentence here because it has provoked an interesting discussion, but please think of it as a separate post from the preceding one, as it seems to sharply change people’s opinion of the rest of the post:
*similarly to nigger, this is our word, not yours, and so my use of it is not offensive, but if you were to use it in a way other than by quoting me, it would be
Goshdarnit, I had you upvoted until you pulled the “our word” thing. That really irks me. I adhere to rules like that because I usually don’t want words that “belong” to other groups more than I want to avoid the firestorm, but… Hey, I’m bisexual. Suppose I declare that it’s okay with me if Yvain uses the word “queer” to describe people who identify as queer. Then is it okay? I mean, it’s my word, right? Can’t I share it?
I often use the term ‘queer’ as a catch-all term for LGBTetc (and much shorter than an ever-growing acronym); the definition is basically anybody who fails to conform to mainstream expectations of gender and sexuality. (The antonym of ‘queer’ is ‘straight’, which for me is rather more specific than ‘heterosexual’.) As a queer person myself, presumably I have the right to do this (although I’m not gay, so maybe not?), but actually I would like others to do so as well.
As far as I’m concerned you’re free to do this. Then again, I started using “queer” instead of “gay” years ago precisely because I wanted my language to be more inclusive.
Goshdarnit, I had you upvoted until you pulled the “our word” thing. That really irks me
Haha, the ironing is delicious. I was throwing that in there not because I typically find it offensive, but to draw attention to yet another detail that was perhaps overlooked. Not that Yvain did so, but since the topic is things that offend people, I thought it worth bringing up.
Hey, I’m bisexual. Suppose I declare that it’s okay with me if Yvain uses the word “queer” to describe people who identify as queer. Then is it okay? I mean, it’s my word, right? Can’t I share it?
Do you have black friends who have decided that you can say “nigger”? It’s the same issue, more or less.
My actual opinion on the subject varies greatly depending on the context. Is it a bunch of non-hetero people talking? Then sure, fire away. Is it a heterosexual that I know personally to be supportive of lgbtqetc rights, has positive opinions of other sexual orientations, et cetera, and the group they’re with takes no offense at their use of it? Then sure, absolutely.
But what if it’s a heterosexual that I don’t know? Well, then it makes me a bit squicky. What if it’s you and Yvain talking, and you’ve previously (before I arrived) said that it’s okay for Yvain to say it? I show up, I don’t know you’re bisexual, Yvain does something that indicates he(?) is heterosexual, and then uses the word queer. I would be weirded out, feel significantly less comfortable, and depending on my prior mood, either push the issue or try to leave.
What if it’s just some straight guys talking? Then it has exactly the same problems as a bunch of white people using the word “nigger” amongst themselves. Even more, because there are people who appear to outsiders’ glances to be straight, but really aren’t, whereas there are very few people who appear to be white but are actually black.
I think it is a very good general rule that if you are not part of a minority, you should not use words that have been specifically socioengineered to cause offense to that minority. White people shouldn’t, in general, say “nigger” or “darkie”, with rather few exceptions. Similarly, straight people shouldn’t, in general, say “queer” or “faggot” or “dyke”, with rather few exceptions.
So to actually answer your question, I would say that that makes it perfectly okay for Yvain to use in conversations between the two of you or between him and other people who have expressed the same sentiment as you. That does not make it okay for Yvain to then use that with carte blanche in all social situations.
Sorry for using you as the example, Yvain, when you haven’t actually done any of the things we’re discussing.
edit: I am quite curious about the downvotes I’m receiving. Could the people who are downvoting me please respond and say why, as Alicorn did? Probably not, since me editing this won’t send you a notification, but I thought I’d ask. I would also be extremely curious to know the sexualities of the people who are upvoting Alicorn but not me, vice versa, both, or neither. As a separate question, does anyone know of a way, perhaps similar to Reddit Enhancement Suite, to see the number of upvotes and the number of downvotes, rather than just their sum?
Libertarian white straight male here. “Our word” is the map, not the territory.
Everything is context and many people will fail miserably at using “nigger”, “queer” etc. in even marginally appropriate contexts. Moreover, probably >99% of the time whites/straights use the words they’re meant to be offensive. Which is all the more reason (for members of these groups) to avoid the use to avoid confusion.
However, that also includes members of said minorities who belive that from their merely being members of such groups they have rights or sensibilities others don’t. They don’t. It’s just that they’re pretty much guaranteed not to be denigrating their own group*.
So to me the issue is transparency. If I as a straight white male somehow could achieve the same level of transparency regarding my goals and intentions, I should be able to use such words just like black gays. My scheme allows for that; yours doesn’t.
Finally, many people take offence at “nigger” or “queer”, even when used by the in-groups. I feel pretty uncomfortable when you guys do that, so would you please stop it?**
ETA: would you yourself “use [“queer”] with carte blanche in all social situations”?
*: At least in the way of the original haters.
**: Semi-tongue-in-cheek.
In the realm of social interaction, the territory you’re navigating is made up of other people’s maps.
However, that also includes members of said minorities who belive that from their merely being members of such groups they have rights or sensibilities others don’t. They don’t.
I’m not sure what you mean here. They do have extra sensibilities, in the sense that they’re sensitive to things others aren’t: you aren’t hurt (or at least, not in the same way) by the words “nigger” or “queer”, whereas they are. They do have extra rights, in the sense that, if they clearly present as queer, they can be more confident about being transparent in their motivations and intentions for using the word, and so can expect to be able to use it in more social situations without repercussions.
So to me the issue is transparency. If I as a straight white male somehow could achieve the same level of transparency regarding my goals and intentions, I should be able to use such words just like black gays. My scheme allows for that; yours doesn’t.
I mostly agree with this. I see two problems with it. The first is that there are people who have had extremely negative experiences with the word in the past and thus hearing it from anyone, regardless of the intentions of the person saying it, would hurt them. But that’s mostly been addressed by your point about transparency, and the rest is addressed by:
ETA: would you yourself “use [“queer”] with carte blanche in all social situations”?
No, I would not, excellent point. My second issue is, if you don’t have any sort of nefarious intentions, what is motivating you to use the word, instead of another one? Are you in a rap battle for the fate of the universe and you absolutely must complete the rhyme “drank a beer, jigger of rum//man that queer nigger was dumb”?
*: At least in the way of the original haters
Keen observation.
Upon reading all of this conversation and thinking about this for several days, I have amended my policy to be more or less the same as yours. I now do not have a problem with people using those words if I, and everyone else present, has a very clear idea of what the person’s intentions are. Upon reflection I believe that this is the policy I was actually basing my reactions on, yet it was not the one I was vocalizing. I am now curious as to why I was vocalizing the policy I was. Perhaps to increase my status among the minority I’m a part of? Hmm. I’ll be thinking about this for a while.
....aaaand someone just walked by my room yelling “you’re a nigger! A double nigger!”
I commend you for your amendment. Good for you, sir!
My second issue is, if you don’t have any sort of nefarious intentions, what is motivating you to use the word [“queer”], instead of another one? Are you in a rap battle for the fate of the universe and you absolutely must complete the rhyme “drank a beer, jigger of rum//man that queer nigger was dumb”?
I rarely use such words, because it’s difficult to get it right. But my libertarian side does not like people telling me what I can or can’t say.
When I do use such words, it’s most often to mock a racist/sexist/homophobic POV.
My impression was that (around New England at least!) “queer” has been pretty thoroughly stripped of negative connotations. I’m sure things are different elsewhere.
But I really think that there’s a huge difference between white supporters of racial equality and non-queer “allies” WRT their relationships with the respective groups in question.
My impression was that (around New England at least!) “queer” has been pretty thoroughly stripped of negative connotations. I’m sure things are different elsewhere.
Having never lived in New England I cannot comment from personal experience, and furthermore if I do live there in the future I’ll be bringing my own emotional baggage with me, so I won’t be able to judge even then. That said, I am very incredulous of this.
May I take a guess as to the social groups I suspect you’ve encountered this in? I guess that they are primarily white, male, or perhaps a good mixture of genders (but not overwhelmingly female), several of whom are not-straight, almost all of them are relatively highly educated, very lightly religious if at all, and most were not raised in industrial working class households. Is this accurate? What do you think the differences would be if you were, for example, among a group of poorly-educated factory workers who are devoutly Catholic?
But I really think that there’s a huge difference between white supporters of racial equality and non-queer “allies” WRT their relationships with the respective groups in question.
I would be very curious for you to expound upon this.
It seems, if I am not mistaken, that I may have caused some offense. If so, I apologize, and I sympathize with you if you’re in a situation where “queer” is an insult—my intended meaning was that: “straight people shouldn’t, in general, say “queer”… with rather few exceptions” isn’t the case everywhere. In fact, I’d expect that if one were to try to use “queer” as an insult around Cambridge, one would at least initially have difficulty conveying the intended meaning. We’ve even got queer straight people.
May I take a guess as to the social groups I suspect you’ve encountered this in?
Of course! I’d guess that a good first approximation of these social groups is the demographics of a good American college near a prominent body of water (for some reason, this seems to correlate with social liberalism). The only caveat beyond the implied racial re-calibration is that my social groups tend to be predominantly female. And certainly my experience would be different in other settings—as I noted in the grandparent.
But I really think that there’s a huge difference between white supporters of racial equality and non-queer “allies” WRT their relationships with the respective groups in question.
I would be very curious for you to expound upon this.
Well, that’s a whole complicated issue, but the big thing that jumped to mind was that the “supporter” group in “alternative-sexuality” politics is often lumped in with the people they’re “supporting” (gay-straight alliances, the addition of “allies” to the ever-expanding LGBTBBQ acronym...).
In fact, I’d expect that if one were to try to use “queer” as an insult around Cambridge, one would at least initially have difficulty conveying the intended meaning.
You are very optimistic. I expect that even in your area, you could easily accomplish the feat by making a disgusted face and preceding the noun with the modifier “fucking”.
Speaking as a former queer Cantabrigian (who has since moved to a different town): your expectation is entirely correct. Indeed, the “fucking” is optional; tone of voice will do the job quite well.
(EDIT: If the downvoters clarify, either in comment or PM, what it is of this comment they want less of, I might comply with their preferences.)
As far as I can tell, from my reading of the feminist blogosphere (which has considerable overlap with what I might call the pro-LGBT blogosphere), “queer” is generally considered an acceptable catchall term for anyone with a sexuality that doesn’t quite fit into any of what might be called “standard categories”. Or, at least, I’ve never seen anyone ever say that it was a word that shouldn’t be used.
Social pain and physical pain seem to be strongly linked. A dyed-in-the-wool racist may indeed experience actual pain at the sight of an interracial couple.
“Speech as a right” is exactly how this appeared to me when it was all fresh and new, which casts the conflict as a bilateral jihad. Our sacred values are freedom of speech, and not being provoked to physical violence by speech. Islam’s sacred value is not visually depicting Mohammed. Western civilization probably looks like Superhappies to them.
Social pain and physical pain seem to be strongly linked.
I’ve been offended once or twice in my life. It wasn’t painful. It caused anger. I wouldn’t call offense pleasant, but I would call it satisfying, to a certain degree. Pain generally isn’t. Mental pain and physical pain may be related, but I don’t think most offense (particularly of the generalized variety) is properly analogized.
Noticing this again, I feel I went much too easy in my other comment.
This science you cite is completely irrelevant to the dispute. My objection was not that emotional pain and physical pain are different, but that offense is not pain in any sense. That I admit emotional pain is real is quite obvious because I said that targeted racial slurs cause pain.
You cite a study to prove that emotional pain and physical pain are similar—a point that was never in contention. You then use a counterexample that simply assumes that offense is a form of emotional pain—assuming away the exact problem you are trying to address. My entire point is that the emotion of untargeted offense is distinct from the emotion of pain, which you haven’t actually addressed.
I wouldn’t typically re-comment on something like this, but the “Citing science for a tangentially related point, then following it with an unfounded assertion that is implicitly (but not actually) supported by said science,” really, really bothers me, even if you did this unintentionally.
A couple points.
You miss an important issue, which is the western concept as speech as a right. The Folsom street fair can have a promo poster of the last supper as Jesus as a naked black dude surrounded by transvestites, dominatrixes, and sex toys, and no major Christian organization will propose that anyone should be killed. They may try to get funding taken away from the fair, but that’s their right. Westerners have a concept of appropriate levels of conflict, and if someone violates them, we want to punish them. If someone asks me politely to keep it down, I probably will. If they tell mento shut up or they’ll kick my ass, my instinct is to talk even louder (especially if they’re bluffing). This is sensible as annoy of punishing improper behavior.
I also take issue with your characterization of offense as pain. In some cases—where it’s directed at someone, like racial slurs, it is. But in cases of taking offense at untethered actions, pain isn’t accurate. It’s not exactly painful when, say, a Klansmen sees an interracial couple, even if he finds their behaviour offensive. And even if it were, it seems obvious to menthat the couple should not allow that to affect their behaviour. If the Brits in your example just got arbitrarily angry about seeing trout pictures, I’m not sure the same reaction follows. Perhaps if you taboo offense, you get a more coherent picture of two separate emotional reactions.
I would like to believe the Klansman (I was considering changing this to Klansperson, but political correctness is probably inappropriate in this situation) doesn’t feel anything like real suffering when he sees an interracial couple, but I have no evidence for this except my desire to sweep his feelings under the rug so I don’t have to use them in ethical calculus.
For example, I am strongly pro gay rights and gay marriage, but I admit that seeing public displays of affection between gays gives me a negative visceral reaction more than the same displays among straights do. If I could self-modify to remove this feeling I’d do so in a second, but given that I can’t self-modify it seems like this preference is worthy of utilitarian respect; eg insofar as they want to be nice to me, gay people should avoid PDAs around me when it’s not too inconvenient for them (and if gay people have the same feeling in reverse, straight people who are nice should avoid hetero PDAs around them).
I have no reason to think I can model Klansmen well, but when I try, I imagine their feelings around an interracial couple as being a lot like my feeling around gay people having PDAs.
Yes, except the feelings of the Klansman are far stronger—more similar in intensity to the feelings of many muslims toward depictions of Mohammed.
From my own experience I suspect you could self-modify but have insufficient incentive to do so. (That’s not intended as a criticism.) I once had a very strong revulsion to gay PDAs, now I have a very mild aversion to it, perhaps similar to what you describe:
Since you are apparently behaving decently toward gays and not massively uncomfortable in most situations with them there’s not much reason to change. No doubt you have bigger fish to fry.
I feel similar to that but I’m confident that my mild aversion would decrease if I became close friends with a gay couple and spent a lot of time with them. My aversion would easily be swamped by more important values.
I agree. When I hear people say the equivalent of “I can’t self-modify” I always want to ask “what have you tried so far,” and “how long have tried for.” Normally that answer is not much(only a few approaches) and not very long. It often comes from lack of incentives and a belief equivalent to “thats just the way I am.”
That’s consistent with the point I was making, but let me dial back a bit.
I don’t want to commit the Typical Mind Fallacy by generalizing too much from one example. In recent years I’ve realized more and more that my mind works in a fashion that is not typical of most people I’ve met. Some things which are very easy for me seem very difficult for others, and some things difficult for me seem easy for them.
Options available to one are not necessarily available to others.
It’s fine to offer my experience but I’d do better to be more conservative about speculation on the options available to other particular individuals. Yvain is obviously a top poster here who I assume has done a lot of introspection and thought a lot about self modification so it was cheeky of me to assume I might know more about how he can self-modify than he does—in one of my first posts.
Oops.
Interesting. If I am reading your post correctly, then I also might have committed a Mind Projection Fallacy when I read your post, projecting lack of assumption when there was some.
From your post I thought you were expressing that at one point you reacted to gay affection similar to what he described and similarly thought that you could not self modify. You now know that you can so it makes sense to spread the news and method to someone who thinks they can not(who would probably want to if they could) and might be in a similar position you once were and might apply the same solution. Of course maybe Yvain is not in a similar situation and your solution would not apply. You might know more, but there is a better chance that the two experiences do no overlap.
My response comes from the use of “can’t self-modify” rather then “can’t self-modify due to lack of time/resources,” “my continuing efforts have not yet borne fruit,” “I have tried all of my ideas and I am seek new ones,” “other projects consume my time and it is not currently worthwhile to pursue,” and etc. I have seen many people put road blocks in front of themselves by saying “can’t” which often reenforces the belief in “can’t” rather then staying cognizant of the conditions that make something unworthy of investment.
It may be cheeky to assume that you know weather this particular self modification is worth the resource use to Yvain, but it is not cheeky ask for more details(which are only for Yvain to share at his discretion) or offer personal experiences that Yvain may glen some insight or solution from.
That’s all correct. But...
...on reflection it seemed unlikely to me that pretty much all of this hadn’t occurred to him. And I didn’t have much more to offer—I changed my mind over time by thinking about it.
Considering his involvement with LW, which is all about self modification, I think the reasonable interpretation of “I’d modify this in a minute but I can’t” is approximately “I’ve tried to modify this without success”, not ” I think this kind of change is impossible”. What I characterized as cheeky was my reading in of the latter interpretation.
I don’t have any further advice that shouldn’t be obvious. And like I said I’ve developed an appreciation that some things are a lot harder for people than others. Weird little things in many cases.
How should this interact with people who are interested in seeing the display in question? (E.g. I once made out with a girl on a bus full of people and we got lots of, er, positive attention. How should I have weighted that vs. your discomfort with public displays of gay affection if you had been on the bus with us?)
I just realized that when I said “gay”, I meant “gay male”.
Although to answer your question, you’d have to sum up the positive and negative preferences of people who might see you. I expect you’d probably be in the clear at a college pub, less so at the Retired Baptist Womens’ Convention.
Yeah, I thought that might be it. (Of course, when I see gay guys being affectionate my response is “awwwwwww”, so the same sort of question can be constructed.)
It seems to me that encouraging this sort of behavior has many, much larger consequences that you either aren’t thinking of or are deliberately omitting. Consider, for example, the closeted classmate of the gay couple, who knows that they are gay and takes a bit of strength from seeing them express their love publicly—it gives him hope that one day he can do the same. Upon the gay couple taking your advice, however, he sees that even people who proclaim themselves his ally (you) don’t actually want him to be affectionate with people of his sex (this is by far the most common interpretation of your request, in my ample experience. Recall that in this framework your intention doesn’t matter, merely its effects). On the contrary, he sees you and people like you punishing gay behavior and not doing the same to equivalent straight behavior (note that you don’t request straights not to have PDAs, you merely think it OK for others to do so, and in an environment where gay PDAs have already been shot down as inappropriate, this is an extremely risky request for the closeted fellow to make). Thus, this heavily encourages people to remain closeted, which is a very harmful condition. So much moreso than being offended that I venture to say that I cannot think of an offense I would not inflict if it meant that a frightened, closeted queer* could come out without negative consequences.
Edit: I am leaving the following sentence here because it has provoked an interesting discussion, but please think of it as a separate post from the preceding one, as it seems to sharply change people’s opinion of the rest of the post:
*similarly to nigger, this is our word, not yours, and so my use of it is not offensive, but if you were to use it in a way other than by quoting me, it would be
Goshdarnit, I had you upvoted until you pulled the “our word” thing. That really irks me. I adhere to rules like that because I usually don’t want words that “belong” to other groups more than I want to avoid the firestorm, but… Hey, I’m bisexual. Suppose I declare that it’s okay with me if Yvain uses the word “queer” to describe people who identify as queer. Then is it okay? I mean, it’s my word, right? Can’t I share it?
I often use the term ‘queer’ as a catch-all term for LGBTetc (and much shorter than an ever-growing acronym); the definition is basically anybody who fails to conform to mainstream expectations of gender and sexuality. (The antonym of ‘queer’ is ‘straight’, which for me is rather more specific than ‘heterosexual’.) As a queer person myself, presumably I have the right to do this (although I’m not gay, so maybe not?), but actually I would like others to do so as well.
As far as I’m concerned you’re free to do this. Then again, I started using “queer” instead of “gay” years ago precisely because I wanted my language to be more inclusive.
Haha, the ironing is delicious. I was throwing that in there not because I typically find it offensive, but to draw attention to yet another detail that was perhaps overlooked. Not that Yvain did so, but since the topic is things that offend people, I thought it worth bringing up.
Do you have black friends who have decided that you can say “nigger”? It’s the same issue, more or less.
My actual opinion on the subject varies greatly depending on the context. Is it a bunch of non-hetero people talking? Then sure, fire away. Is it a heterosexual that I know personally to be supportive of lgbtqetc rights, has positive opinions of other sexual orientations, et cetera, and the group they’re with takes no offense at their use of it? Then sure, absolutely.
But what if it’s a heterosexual that I don’t know? Well, then it makes me a bit squicky. What if it’s you and Yvain talking, and you’ve previously (before I arrived) said that it’s okay for Yvain to say it? I show up, I don’t know you’re bisexual, Yvain does something that indicates he(?) is heterosexual, and then uses the word queer. I would be weirded out, feel significantly less comfortable, and depending on my prior mood, either push the issue or try to leave.
What if it’s just some straight guys talking? Then it has exactly the same problems as a bunch of white people using the word “nigger” amongst themselves. Even more, because there are people who appear to outsiders’ glances to be straight, but really aren’t, whereas there are very few people who appear to be white but are actually black.
I think it is a very good general rule that if you are not part of a minority, you should not use words that have been specifically socioengineered to cause offense to that minority. White people shouldn’t, in general, say “nigger” or “darkie”, with rather few exceptions. Similarly, straight people shouldn’t, in general, say “queer” or “faggot” or “dyke”, with rather few exceptions.
So to actually answer your question, I would say that that makes it perfectly okay for Yvain to use in conversations between the two of you or between him and other people who have expressed the same sentiment as you. That does not make it okay for Yvain to then use that with carte blanche in all social situations.
Sorry for using you as the example, Yvain, when you haven’t actually done any of the things we’re discussing.
edit: I am quite curious about the downvotes I’m receiving. Could the people who are downvoting me please respond and say why, as Alicorn did? Probably not, since me editing this won’t send you a notification, but I thought I’d ask. I would also be extremely curious to know the sexualities of the people who are upvoting Alicorn but not me, vice versa, both, or neither. As a separate question, does anyone know of a way, perhaps similar to Reddit Enhancement Suite, to see the number of upvotes and the number of downvotes, rather than just their sum?
Libertarian white straight male here. “Our word” is the map, not the territory.
Everything is context and many people will fail miserably at using “nigger”, “queer” etc. in even marginally appropriate contexts. Moreover, probably >99% of the time whites/straights use the words they’re meant to be offensive. Which is all the more reason (for members of these groups) to avoid the use to avoid confusion.
However, that also includes members of said minorities who belive that from their merely being members of such groups they have rights or sensibilities others don’t. They don’t. It’s just that they’re pretty much guaranteed not to be denigrating their own group*.
So to me the issue is transparency. If I as a straight white male somehow could achieve the same level of transparency regarding my goals and intentions, I should be able to use such words just like black gays. My scheme allows for that; yours doesn’t.
Finally, many people take offence at “nigger” or “queer”, even when used by the in-groups. I feel pretty uncomfortable when you guys do that, so would you please stop it?**
ETA: would you yourself “use [“queer”] with carte blanche in all social situations”?
*: At least in the way of the original haters. **: Semi-tongue-in-cheek.
In the realm of social interaction, the territory you’re navigating is made up of other people’s maps.
I’m not sure what you mean here. They do have extra sensibilities, in the sense that they’re sensitive to things others aren’t: you aren’t hurt (or at least, not in the same way) by the words “nigger” or “queer”, whereas they are. They do have extra rights, in the sense that, if they clearly present as queer, they can be more confident about being transparent in their motivations and intentions for using the word, and so can expect to be able to use it in more social situations without repercussions.
I mostly agree with this. I see two problems with it. The first is that there are people who have had extremely negative experiences with the word in the past and thus hearing it from anyone, regardless of the intentions of the person saying it, would hurt them. But that’s mostly been addressed by your point about transparency, and the rest is addressed by:
No, I would not, excellent point. My second issue is, if you don’t have any sort of nefarious intentions, what is motivating you to use the word, instead of another one? Are you in a rap battle for the fate of the universe and you absolutely must complete the rhyme “drank a beer, jigger of rum//man that queer nigger was dumb”?
Keen observation.
Upon reading all of this conversation and thinking about this for several days, I have amended my policy to be more or less the same as yours. I now do not have a problem with people using those words if I, and everyone else present, has a very clear idea of what the person’s intentions are. Upon reflection I believe that this is the policy I was actually basing my reactions on, yet it was not the one I was vocalizing. I am now curious as to why I was vocalizing the policy I was. Perhaps to increase my status among the minority I’m a part of? Hmm. I’ll be thinking about this for a while.
....aaaand someone just walked by my room yelling “you’re a nigger! A double nigger!”
I commend you for your amendment. Good for you, sir!
I rarely use such words, because it’s difficult to get it right. But my libertarian side does not like people telling me what I can or can’t say.
When I do use such words, it’s most often to mock a racist/sexist/homophobic POV.
My impression was that (around New England at least!) “queer” has been pretty thoroughly stripped of negative connotations. I’m sure things are different elsewhere.
But I really think that there’s a huge difference between white supporters of racial equality and non-queer “allies” WRT their relationships with the respective groups in question.
Having never lived in New England I cannot comment from personal experience, and furthermore if I do live there in the future I’ll be bringing my own emotional baggage with me, so I won’t be able to judge even then. That said, I am very incredulous of this.
May I take a guess as to the social groups I suspect you’ve encountered this in? I guess that they are primarily white, male, or perhaps a good mixture of genders (but not overwhelmingly female), several of whom are not-straight, almost all of them are relatively highly educated, very lightly religious if at all, and most were not raised in industrial working class households. Is this accurate? What do you think the differences would be if you were, for example, among a group of poorly-educated factory workers who are devoutly Catholic?
I would be very curious for you to expound upon this.
It seems, if I am not mistaken, that I may have caused some offense. If so, I apologize, and I sympathize with you if you’re in a situation where “queer” is an insult—my intended meaning was that: “straight people shouldn’t, in general, say “queer”… with rather few exceptions” isn’t the case everywhere. In fact, I’d expect that if one were to try to use “queer” as an insult around Cambridge, one would at least initially have difficulty conveying the intended meaning. We’ve even got queer straight people.
Of course! I’d guess that a good first approximation of these social groups is the demographics of a good American college near a prominent body of water (for some reason, this seems to correlate with social liberalism). The only caveat beyond the implied racial re-calibration is that my social groups tend to be predominantly female. And certainly my experience would be different in other settings—as I noted in the grandparent.
Well, that’s a whole complicated issue, but the big thing that jumped to mind was that the “supporter” group in “alternative-sexuality” politics is often lumped in with the people they’re “supporting” (gay-straight alliances, the addition of “allies” to the ever-expanding LGBTBBQ acronym...).
You are very optimistic. I expect that even in your area, you could easily accomplish the feat by making a disgusted face and preceding the noun with the modifier “fucking”.
Speaking as a former queer Cantabrigian (who has since moved to a different town): your expectation is entirely correct. Indeed, the “fucking” is optional; tone of voice will do the job quite well.
(EDIT: If the downvoters clarify, either in comment or PM, what it is of this comment they want less of, I might comply with their preferences.)
Well, yeah, I guess you’re right about that.
As far as I can tell, from my reading of the feminist blogosphere (which has considerable overlap with what I might call the pro-LGBT blogosphere), “queer” is generally considered an acceptable catchall term for anyone with a sexuality that doesn’t quite fit into any of what might be called “standard categories”. Or, at least, I’ve never seen anyone ever say that it was a word that shouldn’t be used.
Social pain and physical pain seem to be strongly linked. A dyed-in-the-wool racist may indeed experience actual pain at the sight of an interracial couple.
“Speech as a right” is exactly how this appeared to me when it was all fresh and new, which casts the conflict as a bilateral jihad. Our sacred values are freedom of speech, and not being provoked to physical violence by speech. Islam’s sacred value is not visually depicting Mohammed. Western civilization probably looks like Superhappies to them.
I’ve been offended once or twice in my life. It wasn’t painful. It caused anger. I wouldn’t call offense pleasant, but I would call it satisfying, to a certain degree. Pain generally isn’t. Mental pain and physical pain may be related, but I don’t think most offense (particularly of the generalized variety) is properly analogized.
Noticing this again, I feel I went much too easy in my other comment.
This science you cite is completely irrelevant to the dispute. My objection was not that emotional pain and physical pain are different, but that offense is not pain in any sense. That I admit emotional pain is real is quite obvious because I said that targeted racial slurs cause pain.
You cite a study to prove that emotional pain and physical pain are similar—a point that was never in contention. You then use a counterexample that simply assumes that offense is a form of emotional pain—assuming away the exact problem you are trying to address. My entire point is that the emotion of untargeted offense is distinct from the emotion of pain, which you haven’t actually addressed.
I wouldn’t typically re-comment on something like this, but the “Citing science for a tangentially related point, then following it with an unfounded assertion that is implicitly (but not actually) supported by said science,” really, really bothers me, even if you did this unintentionally.