I don’t entirely agree. I think vague language is sometimes bullshit but sometimes honesty.
I am a human being rather than an idealized superintelligence. Sometimes my own knowledge and understanding are vague. E.g., to take one of the examples in the OP, I may say “you probably shouldn’t try for a career in theoretical physics unless you are very smart”; I’m not giving an “IQ threshold” (or a mapping from IQ to probability of success, or whatever) because I don’t have one to give. I could be more concrete: “you probably shouldn’t try for a career in theoretical physics unless you have an IQ of at least 130” or something. But that would likely be interpreted as meaning that I have a detailed understanding of the relationship between the cognitive requirements of a theoretical physics career and the things measured by IQ tests, and that I’ve somehow found that 130 is the Right Threshold, and none of that is true. I could be more concrete and make the hedging explicit: “theoretical physics requires a lot of very hard thinking, the sort that correlates well with IQ test results. I have very little idea what the exact requirements are but a super-handwavy guess is that if your IQ isn’t at least 130 and you don’t have concrete evidence that you’re better at theoretical physics than your IQ would suggest, you probably won’t have a good time trying to be a theoretical physicist”. But brevity has value, and frankly that much longer version doesn’t actually convey much more information than “you need to be very smart”.
Unless you and your interlocutor are completely indifferent to the downsides of verbosity, when your knowledge is vague your language should sometimes also be vague.
You’re right on a personal level. On the social level, I lean in lsusr’s direction. Given the apparent utility of IQ as a measure of aptitude, we could be testing everybody and using those results to help people find careers that are good fits for them. The fact that we don’t is at least suggestive of a massive social taboo, which is the cause of the lack of information on the part of individuals that necessitates vagueness.
This would predict that we are good at finding precise information in less sensitive areas, which I don’t think we are. Rather, people don’t know how to create high-quality precise information, so in most areas discourse gets clogged with junk information, and in some sensitive areas we acknowledge the information is bad and therefore try to not assert much.
I think this example shows more that the difference between vagueness and simplicity is dependent on the context. If I talk to somebody who has not read LW/rationality/IQ studies they have no concrete mental model of what it means to have IQ 130 (other than that the higher IQs are better). So then saying “you need IQ 130” and explaining in a convoluted way what exactly did you mean by that conveys less information than just saying “you need to be smart” and makes a simple statement more complex.
On the other hand, if I talk to somebody about whom I have reasonable expectation that they understand what the IQ actually means, saying smart is also simpler, but due to the abundant and less well-defined use outside precise conversations, it might make sense to default to more precise and quantitative statements to avoid confusion.
I think vague language is sometimes bullshit but sometimes honesty.
And sometimes honesty can be bullshit too. Meaning true facts can be communicated in a way that I would consider ‘bullshit-ish’, or severely nit-picky to the point of absurdity.
Sometimes my own knowledge and understanding are vague.
I find this is the case alot, and I would add that I think Acrackedpot is on point with:
I think “deliberate” is doing most of the heavy lifting in this post.
I think all vagueness can be considered bullshit, but not all bullshit can be considered vague.
It’s how someone deals with their lack of knowledge about a particular subject in social or personal relationships that determines whether vagueness or even bullshit is negative or not though.
For example in the social conversation about becoming a theoretical physicist, I could say to someone “you probably shouldn’t try for a career in theoretical physics unless you are very smart”, but I assume that most people would consider this to be common sense. So why do I really need to say it?
If I don’t have anything of value beyond common sense to contribute to the conversation because of my lack of knowledge or understanding, there are other motivating factors which make me say something so vague instead of just listening to people who might have more to contribute. Am I expected to say something, or expected to listen? Am I expected to know something beyond common sense, or expected to always say something stupid, funny or outrageous? Am I interested in being seen as a contributor or as a lurker?
Novices I think are rightly forgiven for bullshitting when they don’t have much to contribute initially, as long as they can learn and improve their understanding of a subject enough to bullshit less and less as time goes by. Or at the least bullshit in a deliberately entertaining way. You might say they are good bullshitters.
Posers on the other hand are generally not forgiven for bullshitting because they don’t learn and improve their understanding of a particular subject, and continue to bullshit as much or possibly even more than they did in the beginning. You might say they are bad bullshitters.
On the other hand, especially in close personal and social relations, bullshitting is a common past time which indicates understanding, trust and intimacy between people. Bullshitting in the confident belief the other person ‘gets it’, is a way of intelligently playing with the construct of the communication.
Human communication always involves 2 parallel streams of information:
1) is the logical verbal information language component which communicates facts as words, and
2) is the emotional component, what the subtext of the information is supposed to make the listener feel and is communicated through tone, emphasis and non verbal means like facial expression and body language.
If 1 is a false statement, 2 is up in the air for positive or negative response from the listener: a good bullshitter can entertain you for hours, and is really the core of the movie industry—actors and actresses are all really really good bullshitters;
on the other hand a bad bullshitter makes things uncomfortable with no apparent purpose other than to pass themselves off as knowledgeable about a particular subject, without providing some qualification like “My best guess is...” or “I know I’m in over my head, but...” They try to lead without knowing where to go.
Asking for feedback as to whether my statements hold any water or not, can ease the strain of trying to take part in the conversation as a novice. So that I expect a good way to participate in a conversation where you lack knowledge or understanding is to throw in some questions along with the vague statements.
I don’t entirely agree. I think vague language is sometimes bullshit but sometimes honesty.
I am a human being rather than an idealized superintelligence. Sometimes my own knowledge and understanding are vague. E.g., to take one of the examples in the OP, I may say “you probably shouldn’t try for a career in theoretical physics unless you are very smart”; I’m not giving an “IQ threshold” (or a mapping from IQ to probability of success, or whatever) because I don’t have one to give. I could be more concrete: “you probably shouldn’t try for a career in theoretical physics unless you have an IQ of at least 130” or something. But that would likely be interpreted as meaning that I have a detailed understanding of the relationship between the cognitive requirements of a theoretical physics career and the things measured by IQ tests, and that I’ve somehow found that 130 is the Right Threshold, and none of that is true. I could be more concrete and make the hedging explicit: “theoretical physics requires a lot of very hard thinking, the sort that correlates well with IQ test results. I have very little idea what the exact requirements are but a super-handwavy guess is that if your IQ isn’t at least 130 and you don’t have concrete evidence that you’re better at theoretical physics than your IQ would suggest, you probably won’t have a good time trying to be a theoretical physicist”. But brevity has value, and frankly that much longer version doesn’t actually convey much more information than “you need to be very smart”.
Unless you and your interlocutor are completely indifferent to the downsides of verbosity, when your knowledge is vague your language should sometimes also be vague.
You’re right on a personal level. On the social level, I lean in lsusr’s direction. Given the apparent utility of IQ as a measure of aptitude, we could be testing everybody and using those results to help people find careers that are good fits for them. The fact that we don’t is at least suggestive of a massive social taboo, which is the cause of the lack of information on the part of individuals that necessitates vagueness.
Taboo → lack of information → vagueness.
This would predict that we are good at finding precise information in less sensitive areas, which I don’t think we are. Rather, people don’t know how to create high-quality precise information, so in most areas discourse gets clogged with junk information, and in some sensitive areas we acknowledge the information is bad and therefore try to not assert much.
I think this example shows more that the difference between vagueness and simplicity is dependent on the context. If I talk to somebody who has not read LW/rationality/IQ studies they have no concrete mental model of what it means to have IQ 130 (other than that the higher IQs are better). So then saying “you need IQ 130” and explaining in a convoluted way what exactly did you mean by that conveys less information than just saying “you need to be smart” and makes a simple statement more complex.
On the other hand, if I talk to somebody about whom I have reasonable expectation that they understand what the IQ actually means, saying smart is also simpler, but due to the abundant and less well-defined use outside precise conversations, it might make sense to default to more precise and quantitative statements to avoid confusion.
And sometimes honesty can be bullshit too. Meaning true facts can be communicated in a way that I would consider ‘bullshit-ish’, or severely nit-picky to the point of absurdity.
I find this is the case alot, and I would add that I think Acrackedpot is on point with:
I think all vagueness can be considered bullshit, but not all bullshit can be considered vague.
It’s how someone deals with their lack of knowledge about a particular subject in social or personal relationships that determines whether vagueness or even bullshit is negative or not though.
For example in the social conversation about becoming a theoretical physicist, I could say to someone “you probably shouldn’t try for a career in theoretical physics unless you are very smart”, but I assume that most people would consider this to be common sense. So why do I really need to say it?
If I don’t have anything of value beyond common sense to contribute to the conversation because of my lack of knowledge or understanding, there are other motivating factors which make me say something so vague instead of just listening to people who might have more to contribute. Am I expected to say something, or expected to listen? Am I expected to know something beyond common sense, or expected to always say something stupid, funny or outrageous? Am I interested in being seen as a contributor or as a lurker?
Novices I think are rightly forgiven for bullshitting when they don’t have much to contribute initially, as long as they can learn and improve their understanding of a subject enough to bullshit less and less as time goes by. Or at the least bullshit in a deliberately entertaining way. You might say they are good bullshitters.
Posers on the other hand are generally not forgiven for bullshitting because they don’t learn and improve their understanding of a particular subject, and continue to bullshit as much or possibly even more than they did in the beginning. You might say they are bad bullshitters.
On the other hand, especially in close personal and social relations, bullshitting is a common past time which indicates understanding, trust and intimacy between people. Bullshitting in the confident belief the other person ‘gets it’, is a way of intelligently playing with the construct of the communication.
Human communication always involves 2 parallel streams of information:
1) is the logical verbal information language component which communicates facts as words, and
2) is the emotional component, what the subtext of the information is supposed to make the listener feel and is communicated through tone, emphasis and non verbal means like facial expression and body language.
If 1 is a false statement, 2 is up in the air for positive or negative response from the listener: a good bullshitter can entertain you for hours, and is really the core of the movie industry—actors and actresses are all really really good bullshitters;
on the other hand a bad bullshitter makes things uncomfortable with no apparent purpose other than to pass themselves off as knowledgeable about a particular subject, without providing some qualification like “My best guess is...” or “I know I’m in over my head, but...” They try to lead without knowing where to go.
Asking for feedback as to whether my statements hold any water or not, can ease the strain of trying to take part in the conversation as a novice. So that I expect a good way to participate in a conversation where you lack knowledge or understanding is to throw in some questions along with the vague statements.