As a meta-remark, your comment doesn’t steelman my argument, and I think that steelmanning arguments helps keep the conversation on track, so I’d appreciate it if you were to do so in the future.
Something has gone severely wrong with the ‘steelman’ concept if it is now being used offensively, to force social obligations onto others. This ‘meta-remark’ amounts to a demand that if JonahSinick says something stupid then it is up to others to search related concept space to find the nearest possible good argument for a better conclusion and act as if Jonah had said that instead of what he actually said. That is an entirely unreasonable expectation of his audience and expecting all readers to come up with what amounts to superior content than the post author whenever they make a reply is just ridiculously computationally inefficient.
Responses below. As a meta-remark, your comment doesn’t steelman my argument, and I think that steelmanning arguments helps keep the conversation on track, so I’d appreciate it if you were to do so in the future.
I have a known problem with this (Anna Salamon told me so, therefore it is true) so Jonah’s remark above is a priori plausible. I don’t know if I can do so successfully, but will make an effort in this direction.
(It’s true that what Jonah means is technically ‘principle of charity’ used to interpret original intent, not ‘steelman’ used to repair original intent, but the principle of charity says we should interpret the request above as if he had said ‘principle of charity’.)
(It’s true that what Jonah means is technically ‘principle of charity’ used to interpret original intent, not ‘steelman’ used to repair original intent, but the principle of charity says we should interpret the request above as if he had said ‘principle of charity’.)
Something has gone severely wrong with the ‘steelman’ concept if it is now being used offensively,
No offense intended :-)
to force social obligations onto others
Request, not force
it is up to others to search related concept space to find the nearest possible good argument for a better conclusion
My remark that steelmanning keeps the discussion on track is genuine in intention. I agree that norms for steelmanning could conceivably become too strong for efficient discourse, but I think that at the margin, it would be better if people were doing much more steelmanning.
I think the concept you’re looking for is the principle of charity. Steel man is what you do to someone else’s argument in order to make sure yours is good, after you’ve defeated their actual argument. Principle of charity is what you do in discourse to make sure you’re having the best possible discussion.
If you think Eliezer should have steelmanned your argument then you think he has already defeated it—before he even commented!
I guess I didn’t mean that he didn’t steelman my argument, I meant that he didn’t steelman the things that he was objecting to. For example, he could have noted that I did give an example of the type that he seems to have been looking for, rather than focusing on the fact that the Penrose example isn’t of the type that he was looking for. I agree that there’s substantial overlap between this and the principle of charity.
It does make for higher quality discussions, especially when posters who command a larger audience are involved. Let’s also assume that Jonah knows his shizzle, and that if he wrote something which seems stupid at first glance, he may have merely used an unfortunate phraseology. Where’s the fun in shooting down the obvious targets, most readers can do so themselves. Rather skip to the subtle disagreements deep down, where true domina… where more refined and non-obvious counters may be revealed for the readers’ benefit.
Where’s the fun in shooting down the obvious targets, most readers can do so themselves.
As one of those readers I would prefer not to have to. I appreciate the effort others put into keeping the garden well tended and saving me the trouble of reading low quality material myself.
Eliezer’s reply is the kind of reply that I want to see more of. I strongly oppose shaming ‘requests’ used to discourage such replies.
Something has gone severely wrong with the ‘steelman’ concept if it is now being used offensively, to force social obligations onto others. This ‘meta-remark’ amounts to a demand that if JonahSinick says something stupid then it is up to others to search related concept space to find the nearest possible good argument for a better conclusion and act as if Jonah had said that instead of what he actually said. That is an entirely unreasonable expectation of his audience and expecting all readers to come up with what amounts to superior content than the post author whenever they make a reply is just ridiculously computationally inefficient.
I have a known problem with this (Anna Salamon told me so, therefore it is true) so Jonah’s remark above is a priori plausible. I don’t know if I can do so successfully, but will make an effort in this direction.
(It’s true that what Jonah means is technically ‘principle of charity’ used to interpret original intent, not ‘steelman’ used to repair original intent, but the principle of charity says we should interpret the request above as if he had said ‘principle of charity’.)
:-)
No offense intended :-)
Request, not force
My remark that steelmanning keeps the discussion on track is genuine in intention. I agree that norms for steelmanning could conceivably become too strong for efficient discourse, but I think that at the margin, it would be better if people were doing much more steelmanning.
I think the concept you’re looking for is the principle of charity. Steel man is what you do to someone else’s argument in order to make sure yours is good, after you’ve defeated their actual argument. Principle of charity is what you do in discourse to make sure you’re having the best possible discussion.
If you think Eliezer should have steelmanned your argument then you think he has already defeated it—before he even commented!
I guess I didn’t mean that he didn’t steelman my argument, I meant that he didn’t steelman the things that he was objecting to. For example, he could have noted that I did give an example of the type that he seems to have been looking for, rather than focusing on the fact that the Penrose example isn’t of the type that he was looking for. I agree that there’s substantial overlap between this and the principle of charity.
It does make for higher quality discussions, especially when posters who command a larger audience are involved. Let’s also assume that Jonah knows his shizzle, and that if he wrote something which seems stupid at first glance, he may have merely used an unfortunate phraseology. Where’s the fun in shooting down the obvious targets, most readers can do so themselves. Rather skip to the subtle disagreements deep down, where true domina… where more refined and non-obvious counters may be revealed for the readers’ benefit.
As one of those readers I would prefer not to have to. I appreciate the effort others put into keeping the garden well tended and saving me the trouble of reading low quality material myself.
Eliezer’s reply is the kind of reply that I want to see more of. I strongly oppose shaming ‘requests’ used to discourage such replies.