BTW, there are plenty of monogamists who think it’s immoral for anyone to have a sexual relationship with someone without also committing to not have sex with anyone else, whereas I’d guess there aren’t many poly people who think it’s immoral for other people to have monogamous relationships.
I suspect it depends somewhat on how I phrase the question.
Even in my own American urban poly-friendly subculture, I expect a significant percentage of poly folk would agree that there exist a great many monogamous relationships right now that are immoral, which would not be immoral were they polygamous, because they involve people who ought to be/would be happier if they were/are naturally polygamous. I’m not sure what numbers they’d put around “many”, though. I know several who would put it upwards of 50%, but I don’t know how representative they are.
I therefore suspect that some (but I don’t know how many) of them would, if they were coherent about their understanding of evidence, reluctantly agree that being in a monogamous relationship is evidence of immorality.
But I agree that there are few if any poly folk who would agree (other than as a signaling move) that monogamous relationshjps are definitionally immoral.
That’s pretty silly. The suffering from jealousy and the stress of having to think through all those difficult issues would make polyamory a net loss for many people.
If you wanted to put them down, you might have a case for calling such people weak or stupid for being unable to deal with emotions or think about these issues...or you might say that they are wise, and they are picking their battles and investing those emotional/intellectual resources into things that matter more to them.
Of course, I think you’d be completely justified in calling the belief that polyamory is immoral as a utilitarian net evil.
Well, quite a lot aren’t aware of the existence of polyamory at all. If they think that a person who’s in a sexual relationship with someone would necessarily feel betrayed if they knew that person was also having sex with someone else, they would be likely to consider it immoral even without a religious basis.
I dunno—but if you mean “the unexamined remnants of former religiosity” on a societal level¹ rather than on an individual level, then I guess that’s the main reason for the overwhelming majority of such people to hold such opinions. There might also be a few people who know that monogamy can curb the spread of STDs and lack a clear distinction between terminal and instrumental values, and/or (possibly incorrectly²) believe that monogamy is “natural” (i.e. it was the norm in the EEA) and commit the naturalistic fallacy, though.
i.e., a society used to have a memeplex, originating from religion, which included the idea that “one can only (romantically) love one person at a time”; that society has since shed most of that memeplex, but not that particular idea, which is still part of the intersubjective truth—even among individuals who were never religious in the first place.
“Possibly” meaning that I don’t know myself, because I haven’t looked into that yet—not that I’ve seen all the available evidence and concluded it doesn’t definitely point one way or another.
I think I wanted to show how people who are monogamous usually are because of a cached belief, whereas people who are polyamorous usually are because they’ve thought about both possibilities and concluded one is better.
Then you failed. Consider the following variant of your argument:
“there are plenty of non child molesters who think it’s immoral for any adult to have a sexual relationship with a child, whereas I’d guess there aren’t many child molesters who think it’s immoral for other adults to have relationships exclusively with adults.”
“I think I wanted to show that people who are not child molesters usually are because of a cached belief, whereas people who are child molesters usually are because they’ve thought about both possibilities and concluded one is better.”
Why was that downvoted to −2? Technically that’s correct (though by “show” I didn’t mean ‘rigorously prove’, I meant ‘provide one more piece of evidence’—but yeah, the second paragraph of your comment is evidence for the third, though priors are different in the two cases).
the second paragraph of your comment is evidence for the third, though priors are different in the two cases
I don’t think so. The existence of a widespread moral prohibition against some uncommon behavior, which is not matched by a claim of immorality of the typical behavior by those who defend the uncommon behavior, is not evidence that the widespread moral prohibition is a “cached belief” (that is, a meme maintaned only due to tradition and intellectual laziness). People in the majority group could well have pondered the uncommon behavior and decided they had good reason to consider it immoral.
Let A(X) = “There are plenty of non X-ers who think it’s immoral for anyone to X, whereas there aren’t many X-ers who think it’s immoral for other people to refuse to X.”
Let B(X) = “People who are non-X-ers usually are because of a cached belief, whereas people who are X-ers usually are because they’ve thought about both possibilities and concluded one is better.”
Are you really saying that log(P(A(X)|B(X))/P(A(X)|¬B(X))) ≤ 0? or do you just mean that while positive it is very small? Because I really can’t see how A(X) can be more likely given ¬B(X) than given B(X).
¬B(X) is “People who are non-X-ers rarely are because of a cached belief, or people who are X-ers rarely are because they’ve thought about both possibilities and concluded one is better.”
Why do you think that ¬B(X) would make A(X) any less likely than B(X) would?
BTW, there are plenty of monogamists who think it’s immoral for anyone to have a sexual relationship with someone without also committing to not have sex with anyone else, whereas I’d guess there aren’t many poly people who think it’s immoral for other people to have monogamous relationships.
I suspect it depends somewhat on how I phrase the question.
Even in my own American urban poly-friendly subculture, I expect a significant percentage of poly folk would agree that there exist a great many monogamous relationships right now that are immoral, which would not be immoral were they polygamous, because they involve people who ought to be/would be happier if they were/are naturally polygamous. I’m not sure what numbers they’d put around “many”, though. I know several who would put it upwards of 50%, but I don’t know how representative they are.
I therefore suspect that some (but I don’t know how many) of them would, if they were coherent about their understanding of evidence, reluctantly agree that being in a monogamous relationship is evidence of immorality.
But I agree that there are few if any poly folk who would agree (other than as a signaling move) that monogamous relationshjps are definitionally immoral.
That’s pretty silly. The suffering from jealousy and the stress of having to think through all those difficult issues would make polyamory a net loss for many people.
If you wanted to put them down, you might have a case for calling such people weak or stupid for being unable to deal with emotions or think about these issues...or you might say that they are wise, and they are picking their battles and investing those emotional/intellectual resources into things that matter more to them.
Of course, I think you’d be completely justified in calling the belief that polyamory is immoral as a utilitarian net evil.
How many monogamists hold such opinions but not due to religiosity (or the unexamined remnants of former religiosity)?
Well, quite a lot aren’t aware of the existence of polyamory at all. If they think that a person who’s in a sexual relationship with someone would necessarily feel betrayed if they knew that person was also having sex with someone else, they would be likely to consider it immoral even without a religious basis.
Numerically, though, I have no idea.
I dunno—but if you mean “the unexamined remnants of former religiosity” on a societal level¹ rather than on an individual level, then I guess that’s the main reason for the overwhelming majority of such people to hold such opinions. There might also be a few people who know that monogamy can curb the spread of STDs and lack a clear distinction between terminal and instrumental values, and/or (possibly incorrectly²) believe that monogamy is “natural” (i.e. it was the norm in the EEA) and commit the naturalistic fallacy, though.
i.e., a society used to have a memeplex, originating from religion, which included the idea that “one can only (romantically) love one person at a time”; that society has since shed most of that memeplex, but not that particular idea, which is still part of the intersubjective truth—even among individuals who were never religious in the first place.
“Possibly” meaning that I don’t know myself, because I haven’t looked into that yet—not that I’ve seen all the available evidence and concluded it doesn’t definitely point one way or another.
This sounds true, but I’m not sure how it’s relevant to my comment beyond my use of the word “polyamory”.
I think I wanted to show how people who are monogamous usually are because of a cached belief, whereas people who are polyamorous usually are because they’ve thought about both possibilities and concluded one is better.
Then you failed. Consider the following variant of your argument:
“there are plenty of non child molesters who think it’s immoral for any adult to have a sexual relationship with a child, whereas I’d guess there aren’t many child molesters who think it’s immoral for other adults to have relationships exclusively with adults.”
“I think I wanted to show that people who are not child molesters usually are because of a cached belief, whereas people who are child molesters usually are because they’ve thought about both possibilities and concluded one is better.”
That’s distressingly convincing.
Why was that downvoted to −2? Technically that’s correct (though by “show” I didn’t mean ‘rigorously prove’, I meant ‘provide one more piece of evidence’—but yeah, the second paragraph of your comment is evidence for the third, though priors are different in the two cases).
“Let us not speak of them, but look, and pass.”
I don’t think so. The existence of a widespread moral prohibition against some uncommon behavior, which is not matched by a claim of immorality of the typical behavior by those who defend the uncommon behavior, is not evidence that the widespread moral prohibition is a “cached belief” (that is, a meme maintaned only due to tradition and intellectual laziness). People in the majority group could well have pondered the uncommon behavior and decided they had good reason to consider it immoral.
Let A(X) = “There are plenty of non X-ers who think it’s immoral for anyone to X, whereas there aren’t many X-ers who think it’s immoral for other people to refuse to X.”
Let B(X) = “People who are non-X-ers usually are because of a cached belief, whereas people who are X-ers usually are because they’ve thought about both possibilities and concluded one is better.”
Are you really saying that log(P(A(X)|B(X))/P(A(X)|¬B(X))) ≤ 0? or do you just mean that while positive it is very small? Because I really can’t see how A(X) can be more likely given ¬B(X) than given B(X).
¬B(X) is “People who are non-X-ers rarely are because of a cached belief, or people who are X-ers rarely are because they’ve thought about both possibilities and concluded one is better.”
Why do you think that ¬B(X) would make A(X) any less likely than B(X) would?
Ah. Very true.