[Note: I also attended the workshop and am writing this before reading the main post to avoid being biased.]
The out of class discussions alone were more than worth my while. However this is partially due to my circumstances, I am about to graduate college with a double major in CS and psychology. Deciding which (if either) field to pursue, and how to best pursue it is obviously quite important to me. Before going to the workshop, I had already done most of the obvious “due diligence” research on the matter, but still updated significantly during the workshop. Talking to several of the other CfAR participants, the instructors, and several LW people who stopped by (Lukeprog, Yvain ect.) uncovered many important points that I had missed. For example, I assumed the median staring salary for computer scientists was a reasonable estimate for what my starting salary would be. It turns out that I can expect to make about twice that much money if I use certain job hunting techniques I learned at the workshop and optimize for money (instead of, say, cool sounding problems). I don’t expect most people to be in similar positions, but I do think asking questions at a CfAR event is a very powerful way of researching a fairly large class of problems. If all else fails pick one position and offer ridiculous side-bet odds with a high burden of proof on the other person.
As for the official lessons, if I actually internalize them all, and they work as advertised they will be some of the most important things I have learned in my life. If we take the outside view and assume that I will retain and successfully use them at the same rate as skills I learned at similar retreats then the expected value drops by more than half, but is still pretty high. Furthermore, I have several strong inside view reasons to believe I will retain more of what I learned here. The most obvious is the six weeks of follow up, but there are other reasons, like the fact that I actually slept at CfAR which should increase my retention.
-Edit, minor gramar stuff fixed. Also, I endorse the OP’s view of the workshop, except for the sleep part. In particular I forgot to mention the venue, but both the Rose Garden Inn and the food were both spectacular (this was despite my having dietary restrictions). One minor complaint, the Inn could use more writing/setting food down surfaces.
Upvoted for writing this before reading the main post. Is that the sort of technique they taught you?
To repeat my request to Qiaochu: would you be willing to follow up in a year or two and tell us whether the effects lasted? If you commit now, and use Boomerang to remind yourself, I would be grateful.
Upvoted for writing this before reading the main post. Is that the sort of technique they taught you?
It’s related to a point that Julia made in her “Evaluating Advice” unit about contamination of evidence. The idea is to avoid anchoring people to a particular answer when you ask them questions. See also this xkcd comic.
Upvoted out of interest. I try to do this myself, but it never seems to work as well as I expect it should; without an anchor, people frequently just try to guess what I want to hear instead of outputting their own opinion.
Or at least I think they do. It is inherently difficult to verify that sort of thing.
For boring reasons I don’t feel like using Boomerang to remind myself, but if you message me in a year (and I still have an active LW, and insert other obvious caveats here) I’ll write the post and/or post significant comments on the retrospectives of other attendees.
ETA
Upvoted for writing this before reading the main post. Is that the sort of technique they taught you?
Short answer yes. Long answer, it is the obvious converse of some of Julia’s techniques for soliciting useful advice on the other hand they did not directly suggest it for giving good advice, and I suspect I would have thought to do it even if I had missed that session. Its a pretty obvious idea (at least to me).
For example, I assumed the median staring salary for computer scientists was a reasonable estimate for what my starting salary would be. It turns out that I can expect to make about twice that much money if I use certain job hunting techniques I learned at the workshop and optimize for money (instead of, say, cool sounding problems).
What changed your expectation of your starting salary?
Talking to a large number of computer scientists at the workshop, and deciding I’d be fine with, among other things, working in finance in the general San Francisco /Silicon valley area.
working in finance in the general San Francisco /Silicon valley area.
Is that a better idea than trying to get a market-rate salary with a significant chunk of equity at an early-stage startup that your unusually rational brain has suggested to you has an unusually large chance of making it big?
I’m not sure. I just assign very high probability to it being better than going into academic psychology or the sort of CS jobs I had been considering in my hometown. Do you have some reason to believe I should try the start-up route?
I would point out that a psych/CS person could be really useful to a startup. Having more than just coding skills can be huge, and if anything you know about psych is related to behaviour, then you’re golden. I’d like to point to this article about instagram by Nir Eyal:
“But at its core, Instagram is the latest example of an enterprising team, conversant in psychology as much as technology, that unleashed an addictive product on users who made it part of their daily routines.”
Either/both. Someone who can just code is limited to that range of experience. Someone who can code and knows psych can not just code, but also use their knowledge of psych to shape product design decisions (e.g. Instagram) or even design software to solve problems in the field of psychology (either psychological problems people have or problems psychologists have). You get way more options by having not just one niche.
Well, there’s this. The startup thing is probably better for someone like me who has spent a ton of time thinking about what sort of startup is likely to be successful. I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on it.
BTW, it’s worth noting that there are probably also ways to strategically maximize your income as a psychologist.
A standard way to make more money as a psychology professor is to get a job in a business school instead of a psychology department. It’s worth maybe a factor of 2.
Dan
(beoShaffer, we talked some about jobs at the workshop, but the business school option didn’t come up. PM/email me if you want to talk more.)
[Note: I also attended the workshop and am writing this before reading the main post to avoid being biased.]
The out of class discussions alone were more than worth my while. However this is partially due to my circumstances, I am about to graduate college with a double major in CS and psychology. Deciding which (if either) field to pursue, and how to best pursue it is obviously quite important to me. Before going to the workshop, I had already done most of the obvious “due diligence” research on the matter, but still updated significantly during the workshop. Talking to several of the other CfAR participants, the instructors, and several LW people who stopped by (Lukeprog, Yvain ect.) uncovered many important points that I had missed. For example, I assumed the median staring salary for computer scientists was a reasonable estimate for what my starting salary would be. It turns out that I can expect to make about twice that much money if I use certain job hunting techniques I learned at the workshop and optimize for money (instead of, say, cool sounding problems). I don’t expect most people to be in similar positions, but I do think asking questions at a CfAR event is a very powerful way of researching a fairly large class of problems. If all else fails pick one position and offer ridiculous side-bet odds with a high burden of proof on the other person.
As for the official lessons, if I actually internalize them all, and they work as advertised they will be some of the most important things I have learned in my life. If we take the outside view and assume that I will retain and successfully use them at the same rate as skills I learned at similar retreats then the expected value drops by more than half, but is still pretty high. Furthermore, I have several strong inside view reasons to believe I will retain more of what I learned here. The most obvious is the six weeks of follow up, but there are other reasons, like the fact that I actually slept at CfAR which should increase my retention.
-Edit, minor gramar stuff fixed. Also, I endorse the OP’s view of the workshop, except for the sleep part. In particular I forgot to mention the venue, but both the Rose Garden Inn and the food were both spectacular (this was despite my having dietary restrictions). One minor complaint, the Inn could use more writing/setting food down surfaces.
In conclusion tell CfAR “Shut up and take my money.” or you will not go to space today.
Upvoted for writing this before reading the main post. Is that the sort of technique they taught you?
To repeat my request to Qiaochu: would you be willing to follow up in a year or two and tell us whether the effects lasted? If you commit now, and use Boomerang to remind yourself, I would be grateful.
It’s related to a point that Julia made in her “Evaluating Advice” unit about contamination of evidence. The idea is to avoid anchoring people to a particular answer when you ask them questions. See also this xkcd comic.
Upvoted out of interest. I try to do this myself, but it never seems to work as well as I expect it should; without an anchor, people frequently just try to guess what I want to hear instead of outputting their own opinion.
Or at least I think they do. It is inherently difficult to verify that sort of thing.
For boring reasons I don’t feel like using Boomerang to remind myself, but if you message me in a year (and I still have an active LW, and insert other obvious caveats here) I’ll write the post and/or post significant comments on the retrospectives of other attendees.
ETA
Short answer yes. Long answer, it is the obvious converse of some of Julia’s techniques for soliciting useful advice on the other hand they did not directly suggest it for giving good advice, and I suspect I would have thought to do it even if I had missed that session. Its a pretty obvious idea (at least to me).
I have set a Boomerang reminder to myself. I will ask you in a year. Thanks.
What changed your expectation of your starting salary?
Talking to a large number of computer scientists at the workshop, and deciding I’d be fine with, among other things, working in finance in the general San Francisco /Silicon valley area.
Is that a better idea than trying to get a market-rate salary with a significant chunk of equity at an early-stage startup that your unusually rational brain has suggested to you has an unusually large chance of making it big?
I’m not sure. I just assign very high probability to it being better than going into academic psychology or the sort of CS jobs I had been considering in my hometown. Do you have some reason to believe I should try the start-up route?
I would point out that a psych/CS person could be really useful to a startup. Having more than just coding skills can be huge, and if anything you know about psych is related to behaviour, then you’re golden. I’d like to point to this article about instagram by Nir Eyal: “But at its core, Instagram is the latest example of an enterprising team, conversant in psychology as much as technology, that unleashed an addictive product on users who made it part of their daily routines.”
Do you mean as a founder, an early hire, or both? I don’t really have many start up concepts on hand.
Either/both. Someone who can just code is limited to that range of experience. Someone who can code and knows psych can not just code, but also use their knowledge of psych to shape product design decisions (e.g. Instagram) or even design software to solve problems in the field of psychology (either psychological problems people have or problems psychologists have). You get way more options by having not just one niche.
Well, there’s this. The startup thing is probably better for someone like me who has spent a ton of time thinking about what sort of startup is likely to be successful. I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on it.
BTW, it’s worth noting that there are probably also ways to strategically maximize your income as a psychologist.
A standard way to make more money as a psychology professor is to get a job in a business school instead of a psychology department. It’s worth maybe a factor of 2.
Dan
(beoShaffer, we talked some about jobs at the workshop, but the business school option didn’t come up. PM/email me if you want to talk more.)