I note for any other readers that Said is evincing a confusion somewhere in the neighborhood of the Second Guideline and the typical mind fallacy.
In particular, it’s false that I “write and act as though I did hold that belief,” in the sense that a supermajority of those polled would check “true” on a true-false question about it, after reading through (say) two of my essays and a couple dozen of my comments.
(“That belief” = “Duncan has, I think, made it very clear that that a comment that just says ‘what are some examples of this claim?’ is, in his view, unacceptable.”)
It’s pretty obvious that it seems to Said that I write and act in this way. But one of the skills of a competent rationalist is noticing that [how things seem to me] might not be [how they actually are] or [how they seem to others].
Said, in my experience, is not versed in this skill, and does not, as a matter of habit, notice “ah, here I’m stating a thing about my interpretation as if it’s fact, or as if it’s nearly-universal among others.”
e.g. an unequivocally true statement would have been something like “But that still leaves the question of why you write and act in a way that indicates to me that you do hold that belief.”
In addition to being unequivocally true (since it limits its claims to the contents of Said’s own experience, about which he has total authority to speak), it also highlights the territory more clearly, since it draws the reader’s attention to the fact that what’s going isn’t:
Duncan writes and acts in a way that indicates [period; no qualification] that he holds that belief
but rather
Duncan writes and acts in a way that indicates [to me, Said] that he holds that belief
Which makes it more clear that the problem is either in Duncan’s words and actions or in Said’s oft-idiosyncratic interpretation, rather than eliding the whole question and predeciding that of course it’s a Duncan-problem.
My various models of Said retort that:
This is a meaningless distinction; too small to care about and drowned out by nose (I disagree)
Everybody Knows that his statement comes with a prepended “it seems to me” and it’s silly to treat it as if it were intended to be a stronger claim than that (I argue that this is a motte-and-bailey)
This is too much labor to expect of a person (that they correctly confine their commentary to true things, or herald their speculation as speculation; I am unsympathetic)
But I think a lot of Said’s confusions would actually make more sense to Said if he came to the realization that he’s odd, actually, and that the way he uses words is quite nonstandard, and that many of the things which baffle and confuse him are not, in fact, fundamentally baffling or confusing but rather make sense to many non-Said people.
But I think a lot of Said’s confusions would actually make more sense to Said if he came to the realization that he’s odd, actually, and that the way he uses words is quite nonstandard, and that many of the things which baffle and confuse him are not, in fact, fundamentally baffling or confusing but rather make sense to many non-Said people.
There is nothing shocking about finding oneself to be unusual, even (or, perhaps, especially) on Less Wrong. So this particular revelation isn’t very… revelatory.
But I don’t think that many of the things that baffle and confuse me actually make sense to many others. What I do think is that many others think that those things make sense to them—but beneath that perception of understanding is not, fact, any real understanding.
Of course this isn’t true of everything that I find confusing. (How could it be?) But it sure is true of many more things than anyone generally cares to admit.
(As for using words in a nonstandard way, I hardly think that you’re one to make such an accusation characterization! Of the two of us, it seems to me that your use of language is considerably more “nonstandard” than is mine…)
As for using words in a nonstandard way, I hardly think that you’re one to make such an accusation!
I think the best response to this is one of Said’s own comments:
I have (it would seem) a reputation for making certain sorts of comments, which are of course not intended as “attacks” of any sort (social, personal, etc.), but which are sometimes perceived as such—and which perception, in my view, reflects quite poorly on those who thus perceive said comments.
I am not optimizing particularly hard for Said not feeling criticized but also treating my comment above as an “accusation” seems to somewhat belie Said’s nominal policy of looking down on people for interpreting statements as attacks.
In any event: oh yah for sure I use language SUPER weird, on the regular, but I’m also a professional communicator whose speech and writing is widely acclaimed and effective and “nuh uh YOU’RE the one who uses words weird” is orthogonal to the question of whether Said has blind spots and disabilities here (which he does).
(If there was another copy of Said lying around, I might summon him to point out the sheer ridiculousness of responding to “You do X” with “how dare you say I do X when YOU do X”, since that seems like the sort of thing Said loves to do. But in any event, I don’t think having a trait would in fact make me less able to notice and diagnose the trait in others.)
“Accusation” in the grandparent wasn’t meant to imply anything particularly blameworthy or adversarial, though I see how it could be thus perceived, given the context. Consider the word substituted with “characterization” (and I will so edit the previous comment).
In any event: oh yah for sure I use language SUPER weird, on the regular, but I’m also a professional communicator whose speech and writing is widely acclaimed and effective and “nuh uh YOU’RE the one who uses words weird” is orthogonal to the question of whether Said has blind spots and disabilities here (which he does).
I dispute the claim of effectiveness. (As for “acclaimed”, well, the value of this really depends on who’s doing the acclaiming.)
And the question certainly is not orthogonal. My point was that your use of words is more weird and more often weird than mine. You have no place to stand, in my view, when saying of me that I use words weirdly, in some way that leads to misunderstandings. (I also don’t think that the claim is true; but regardless of whether it’s true in general, it’s unusually unconvincing coming from you.)
(If there was another copy of Said lying around, I might summon him to point out the sheer ridiculousness of responding to “You do X” with “how dare you say I do X when YOU do X”, since that seems like the sort of thing Said loves to do.
Indeed this is not ridiculous, when the X in question is something like “using words weirdly”, which can be understood only in a relative way. The point is not “how dare you” but rather “you are unusually unqualified to evaluate this”.
But in any event, I don’t think having a trait would in fact make me less able to notice and diagnose the trait in others.)
This could surely not be claimed for arbitrary traits, but for a trait like this, it seems to me to make plenty of sense.
Quick note re: “acclaimed”: Duncan had fairly largish number of posts highly upvoted during the 2021 Review. You might dispute whether that’s a noteworthy achievement, but, well, in terms of what content should be considered good on LessWrong, I don’t know of a more objective measure of “what the LessWrong community voted on as good, with lots of opportunity for people to argue that each other are mistaken.” (and, notably, Duncan’s posts show up in the top 50 and a couple in the top 20 whether you’re tracking votes from all users or just high karma ones)
(I suppose seeing posts actually cited outside the LessWrong community would be a better/more-objective measure of “something demonstrably good is happening, not potentially just circle-jerky”. I’m interested in tracking that although it seems trickier)
((Not intending to weigh in on any of the other points in this comment))
(I suppose seeing posts actually cited outside the LessWrong community would be a better/more-objective measure of “something demonstrably good is happening, not potentially just circle-jerky”. I’m interested in tracking that although it seems trickier)
In order from “slightly outside of LessWrong” to “very far outside of LessWrong,” I refactored the CFAR handbook against (mild) internal resistance from CFAR and it was received well, I semi-regularly get paid four or low-five figures to teach people rationality, I’ve been invited to speak at 4+ EA Globals and counting, my In Defense of Punch Bug essay has 1800 claps which definitely did not primarily come from this community, my Magic color wheel article has 18,800 claps and got a shoutout from CGPGrey, my sixth grade classroom was featured in a chapter in a book on modern education, and my documentary on parkour was translated by volunteers into like eight different languages and cited by the founder as his favorite parkour video of all time (at at least one moment in time). *shrug
I note for any other readers that Said is evincing a confusion somewhere in the neighborhood of the Second Guideline and the typical mind fallacy.
In particular, it’s false that I “write and act as though I did hold that belief,” in the sense that a supermajority of those polled would check “true” on a true-false question about it, after reading through (say) two of my essays and a couple dozen of my comments.
(“That belief” = “Duncan has, I think, made it very clear that that a comment that just says ‘what are some examples of this claim?’ is, in his view, unacceptable.”)
It’s pretty obvious that it seems to Said that I write and act in this way. But one of the skills of a competent rationalist is noticing that [how things seem to me] might not be [how they actually are] or [how they seem to others].
Said, in my experience, is not versed in this skill, and does not, as a matter of habit, notice “ah, here I’m stating a thing about my interpretation as if it’s fact, or as if it’s nearly-universal among others.”
e.g. an unequivocally true statement would have been something like “But that still leaves the question of why you write and act in a way that indicates to me that you do hold that belief.”
In addition to being unequivocally true (since it limits its claims to the contents of Said’s own experience, about which he has total authority to speak), it also highlights the territory more clearly, since it draws the reader’s attention to the fact that what’s going isn’t:
but rather
Which makes it more clear that the problem is either in Duncan’s words and actions or in Said’s oft-idiosyncratic interpretation, rather than eliding the whole question and predeciding that of course it’s a Duncan-problem.
My various models of Said retort that:
This is a meaningless distinction; too small to care about and drowned out by nose (I disagree)
Everybody Knows that his statement comes with a prepended “it seems to me” and it’s silly to treat it as if it were intended to be a stronger claim than that (I argue that this is a motte-and-bailey)
This is too much labor to expect of a person (that they correctly confine their commentary to true things, or herald their speculation as speculation; I am unsympathetic)
But I think a lot of Said’s confusions would actually make more sense to Said if he came to the realization that he’s odd, actually, and that the way he uses words is quite nonstandard, and that many of the things which baffle and confuse him are not, in fact, fundamentally baffling or confusing but rather make sense to many non-Said people.
There is nothing shocking about finding oneself to be unusual, even (or, perhaps, especially) on Less Wrong. So this particular revelation isn’t very… revelatory.
But I don’t think that many of the things that baffle and confuse me actually make sense to many others. What I do think is that many others think that those things make sense to them—but beneath that perception of understanding is not, fact, any real understanding.
Of course this isn’t true of everything that I find confusing. (How could it be?) But it sure is true of many more things than anyone generally cares to admit.
(As for using words in a nonstandard way, I hardly think that you’re one to make such an
accusationcharacterization! Of the two of us, it seems to me that your use of language is considerably more “nonstandard” than is mine…)(EDIT: Wording)
I think the best response to this is one of Said’s own comments:
I am not optimizing particularly hard for Said not feeling criticized but also treating my comment above as an “accusation” seems to somewhat belie Said’s nominal policy of looking down on people for interpreting statements as attacks.
In any event: oh yah for sure I use language SUPER weird, on the regular, but I’m also a professional communicator whose speech and writing is widely acclaimed and effective and “nuh uh YOU’RE the one who uses words weird” is orthogonal to the question of whether Said has blind spots and disabilities here (which he does).
(If there was another copy of Said lying around, I might summon him to point out the sheer ridiculousness of responding to “You do X” with “how dare you say I do X when YOU do X”, since that seems like the sort of thing Said loves to do. But in any event, I don’t think having a trait would in fact make me less able to notice and diagnose the trait in others.)
“Accusation” in the grandparent wasn’t meant to imply anything particularly blameworthy or adversarial, though I see how it could be thus perceived, given the context. Consider the word substituted with “characterization” (and I will so edit the previous comment).
I dispute the claim of effectiveness. (As for “acclaimed”, well, the value of this really depends on who’s doing the acclaiming.)
And the question certainly is not orthogonal. My point was that your use of words is more weird and more often weird than mine. You have no place to stand, in my view, when saying of me that I use words weirdly, in some way that leads to misunderstandings. (I also don’t think that the claim is true; but regardless of whether it’s true in general, it’s unusually unconvincing coming from you.)
Indeed this is not ridiculous, when the X in question is something like “using words weirdly”, which can be understood only in a relative way. The point is not “how dare you” but rather “you are unusually unqualified to evaluate this”.
This could surely not be claimed for arbitrary traits, but for a trait like this, it seems to me to make plenty of sense.
Quick note re: “acclaimed”: Duncan had fairly largish number of posts highly upvoted during the 2021 Review. You might dispute whether that’s a noteworthy achievement, but, well, in terms of what content should be considered good on LessWrong, I don’t know of a more objective measure of “what the LessWrong community voted on as good, with lots of opportunity for people to argue that each other are mistaken.” (and, notably, Duncan’s posts show up in the top 50 and a couple in the top 20 whether you’re tracking votes from all users or just high karma ones)
(I suppose seeing posts actually cited outside the LessWrong community would be a better/more-objective measure of “something demonstrably good is happening, not potentially just circle-jerky”. I’m interested in tracking that although it seems trickier)
((Not intending to weigh in on any of the other points in this comment))
In order from “slightly outside of LessWrong” to “very far outside of LessWrong,” I refactored the CFAR handbook against (mild) internal resistance from CFAR and it was received well, I semi-regularly get paid four or low-five figures to teach people rationality, I’ve been invited to speak at 4+ EA Globals and counting, my In Defense of Punch Bug essay has 1800 claps which definitely did not primarily come from this community, my Magic color wheel article has 18,800 claps and got a shoutout from CGPGrey, my sixth grade classroom was featured in a chapter in a book on modern education, and my documentary on parkour was translated by volunteers into like eight different languages and cited by the founder as his favorite parkour video of all time (at at least one moment in time). *shrug