Some other random notes (probably not maximally cruxy for you but
1. If Said seemed corrigible about actually integrating the spirit-of-our-models into his commenting style (such as proactively avoiding threads that benefit from a more open/curiosity/interpretative mode, without needing to wait for an author or mod to ban him from that post), then I’d be much more happy to just leave that as a high-level request from the mod team rather than an explicit code-based limitation.
But we’ve had tons of conversations with Said asking him to adjust his behavior, and he seems pretty committed to sticking to his current behavior. At best he seems grudgingly willing to avoid some threads if there are clear-cut rules we can spell out, but I don’t trust him to actually tell the difference in many edge cases.
We’ve spent a hundred+ person hours over the years thinking about how to limit Said’s damage, have a lot of other priorities on our plate. I consider it a priority to resolve this in a way that won’t continue to eat up more of our time.
2. I did list “actually just encourage people to use the ban tool more” is an option. (DirectedEvolution didn’t even know it was an option until pointed out to him recently). If you actually want to advocate for that over a Said-specific-rate-limit, I’m open to that (my model of you thinks that’s worse).
(Note, I and I think several other people on the mod team would have banned him from my comment sections if I didn’t feel an obligation as a mod/site-admin to have a more open comment section)
3. I will probably build something that let’s people Opt Into More Said. I think it’s fairly likely the mod team will probably generally do some more heavier handed moderation in the nearish future, and I think a reasonable countermeasure to build, to alleviate some downsides of this, is to also give authors a “let this user comment unfettered on my posts, even though the mod teams have generally restricted them in some way.”
(I don’t expect that to really resolve your crux here but it seemed like it’s at least an improvement on the margin)
4. I think it’s plausible that the right solution is to ban him from shortform, use shortform as the place where people can talk about whatever they want in a more open/curious vibe. I currently don’t think this is the right call because I just think it’s… just actually a super reasonable, centrally supported use-case of top level posts to have sets of norms that are actively curious and invested. It seems really wrong to me to think the only kind of conversation you need to make intellectual progress be “criticize without trying to figure out what the OP is about and what problems they’re trying to solve”.
I do think, for the case of Said, building out two high level normsets of “open/curious/cooperative” and “debate/adversarial collaboration/thicker-skin-required”, letting authors choose between them, and specifically banning Said from the former, is a viable option I’d consider. I think you have previously argued agains this, and Said expressed dissatisfaction with it elsewhere in this comment section.
(This solution probably wouldn’t address my concerns about Duncan though)
If Said seemed corrigible about actually integrating the spirit-of-our-models into his commenting style (such as proactively avoiding threads that benefit from a more open/curiosity/interpretative mode, without needing to wait for an author or mod to ban him from that post), then I’d be much more happy to just leave that as a high-level request from the mod team rather than an explicit code-based limitation.
I am a little worried that this is a generalization that doesn’t line up with actual evidence on the ground, and instead is caused by some sort of vibe spiral. (I’m reluctant to suggest a lengthy evidence review, both because of the costs and because I’m somewhat uncertain of the benefits—if the problem is that lots of authors find Said annoying or his reactions unpredictable, and we review the record and say “actually Said isn’t annoying”, those authors are unlikely to find it convincing.)
In particular, I keep thinking about this comment (noting that I might be updating too much on one example). I think we have evidence that “Said can engage with open/curious/interpretative topics/posts in a productive way”, and should maybe try to figure out what was different that time.
I will probably build something that let’s people Opt Into More Said.
I think in the sense of the general garden-style conflict (rather than Said/Duncan conflict specifically) this is the only satisfactory solution that’s currently apparent, users picking the norms they get to operate under, like Commenting Guidelines, but more meaningful in practice.
There should be for a start just two options, Athenian Garden and Socratic Garden, so that commenters can cheaply make decisions about what kinds of comments are appropriate for a particular post, without having to read custom guidelines.
I do think, for the case of Said, building out two high level normsets of “open/curious/cooperative” and “debate/adversarial collaboration/thicker-skin-required”, letting authors choose between them, and specifically banning Said from the former, is a viable option I’d consider.
Excellent. I predict that Said wouldn’t be averse to voluntarily not commenting on “open/curious/cooperative” posts, or not commenting there in the kind of style that adherents of that culture dislike, so that “specifically banning Said” from that is an unnecessary caveat.
I did list “actually just encourage people to use the ban tool more” is an option. [...] If you actually want to advocate for that over a Said-specific-rate-limit, I’m open to that (my model of you thinks that’s worse).
Well, I’m glad you’re telling actual-me this rather than using your model of me. I count the fact your model of me is so egregiously poor (despite our having a number of interactions over the years) as a case study in favor of Said’s interaction style (of just asking people things, instead of falsely imagining that you can model them).
Yes, I would, actually, want to advocate for informing users about a feature that already exists that anyone can use, rather than writing new code specifically for the purpose of persecuting a particular user that you don’t like.
Analogously, if the town council of the city I live in passes a new tax increase, I might grumble about it, but I don’t regard it as a direct personal threat. If the town council passes a tax increase that applies specifically to my friend Said Achmiz, and no one else, that’s a threat to me and mine. A government that does that is not legitimate.
It seems really wrong to me to think the only kind of conversation you need to make intellectual progress be “criticize without trying to figure out what the OP is about and what problems they’re trying to solve”.
So, usually when people make this kind of “hostile paraphrase” in an argument, I tend to take it in stride. I mostly regard it as “part of the game”: I think most readers can tell the difference between an attempted fair paraphrase (which an author is expected to agree with) and an intentional hostile paraphrase (which is optimized to highlight a particular criticism, without the expectation that the author will agree with the paraphrase). I don’t tell people to be more charitable to me; I don’t ask them to pass my ideological Turing test; I just say, “That’s not what I meant,” and explain the idea again; I’m happy to do the extra work.
In this particular situation, I’m inclined to try out a different commenting style that involves me doing less interpretive labor. I think you know very well that “criticize without trying to figure out what the OP is about” is not what Said and I think is at issue. Do you think you can rephrase that sentence in a way that would pass Said’s ideological Turing test?
I consider it a priority to resolve this in a way that won’t continue to eat up more of our time.
Right, so if someone complains about Said, point out that they’re free to strong-downvote him and that they’re free to ban him from their posts. That’s much less time-consuming than writing new code! (You’re welcome.)
If Said seemed corrigible about actually integrating the spirit-of-our-models into his commenting style
Sorry, I thought your job was to run a website, not dictate to people how they should think and write? (Where part of running a website includes removing content that you don’t want on the website, but that’s not the same thing as decreeing that individuals must “integrat[e] the spirit-of-[your]-models into [their] commenting style”.) Was I mistaken about what your job is?
building out two high level normsets of “open/curious/cooperative” and “debate/adversarial collaboration/thicker-skin-required”
I am strongly opposed to this because I don’t think the proposed distinction cuts reality at the joints. (I’d be happy to elaborate on request, but will omit the detailed explanation now in order to keep this comment focused.)
We already let authors write their own moderation guidelines! It’s a blank text box! If someone happens to believe in this “cooperative vs. adversarial” false dichotomy, they can write about it in the text box! How is that not enough?
We already let authors write their own moderation guidelines! It’s a blank text box!
Because it’s a blank text box, it’s not convenient for commenters to read it in detail every time, so I expect almost nobody reads it, these guidelines are not practical to follow.
With two standard options, color-coded or something, it becomes actually practical, so the distinction between blank text box and two standard options is crucial. You might still caveat the standard options with additional blank text boxes, but being easy to classify without actually reading is the important part.
Also, moderation guidelines aren’t visible on GreaterWrong at all, afaict. So Said specifically is unlikely to adjust his commenting in response to those guidelines, unless that changes.
(I assume Said mostly uses GW, since he designed it.)
I’ve been busy, so hadn’t replied to this yet, but specifically wanted to apologize for the hostile paraphrase (I notice I’ve done that at least twice now in this thread, I’m trying to better but seems important for me to notice and pay attention to).
I think I the corrigible about actually integrating the spirit-of-our-models into his commenting style” line pretty badly, Oliver and Vaniver also both thought it was pretty alarming. The thing I was trying to say I eventually reworded in my subsequent mod announcement as:
Feel free to argue with this decision. And again, in particular, if Said makes a case that he either can obey the spirit of “don’t imply people have an obligation to engage with your comments”, or someone can suggest a letter-of-the-law that actually accomplishes the thing I’m aiming at in a more clear-cut way that Said thinks he can follow, I’d feel fairly good about revoking the rate-limit.
i.e. this isn’t about Said changing this own thought process, but, like, there is a spirit-of-the-law relevant in the mod decision here, and whether I need to worry about specification-gaming.
I expect you to still object to that for various reasons, and I think it’s reasonable to be pretty suspicious of me for phrasing it the way I did the first time. (I think it does convey something sus about my thought process, but, fwiw I agree it is sus and am reflecting on it)
Feel free to argue with this decision. And again, in particular, if Said makes a case that he either can obey the spirit of “don’t imply people have an obligation to engage with your comments”, or someone can suggest a letter-of-the-law that actually accomplishes the thing I’m aiming at in a more clear-cut way that Said thinks he can follow, I’d feel fairly good about revoking the rate-limit.
I’m still uncertain how I feel about a lot of the details on this (and am enough of a lurker rather than poster that I suspect it’s not worth my time to figure that out / write it publicly), but I just wanted to say that I think this is an extremely good thing to include:
I will probably build something that let’s people Opt Into More Said. I think it’s fairly likely the mod team will probably generally do some more heavier handed moderation in the nearish future, and I think a reasonable countermeasure to build, to alleviate some downsides of this, is to also give authors a “let this user comment unfettered on my posts, even though the mod teams have generally restricted them in some way.”
This strikes me basically as a way to move the mod team’s role more into “setting good defaults” and less “setting the only way things work”. How much y’all should move in that direction seems an open question, as it does limit how much cultivation you can do, but it seems like a very useful tool to make use of in some cases.
How technically troublesome would an allow list be?
Maybe the default is everyone gets three comments on a post. People the author has banned get zero, people the author has opted in for get unlimited, the author automatically gets unlimited comments on their own post, mods automatically get unlimited comments.
(Or if this feels more like a Said and/or Duncan specific issue, make the options “Unlimited”, “Limited”, and “None/Banned” then default to everyone at Unlimited except for Said and/or Duncan at Limited.)
Some other random notes (probably not maximally cruxy for you but
1. If Said seemed corrigible about actually integrating the spirit-of-our-models into his commenting style (such as proactively avoiding threads that benefit from a more open/curiosity/interpretative mode, without needing to wait for an author or mod to ban him from that post), then I’d be much more happy to just leave that as a high-level request from the mod team rather than an explicit code-based limitation.
But we’ve had tons of conversations with Said asking him to adjust his behavior, and he seems pretty committed to sticking to his current behavior. At best he seems grudgingly willing to avoid some threads if there are clear-cut rules we can spell out, but I don’t trust him to actually tell the difference in many edge cases.
We’ve spent a hundred+ person hours over the years thinking about how to limit Said’s damage, have a lot of other priorities on our plate. I consider it a priority to resolve this in a way that won’t continue to eat up more of our time.
2. I did list “actually just encourage people to use the ban tool more” is an option. (DirectedEvolution didn’t even know it was an option until pointed out to him recently). If you actually want to advocate for that over a Said-specific-rate-limit, I’m open to that (my model of you thinks that’s worse).
(Note, I and I think several other people on the mod team would have banned him from my comment sections if I didn’t feel an obligation as a mod/site-admin to have a more open comment section)
3. I will probably build something that let’s people Opt Into More Said. I think it’s fairly likely the mod team will probably generally do some more heavier handed moderation in the nearish future, and I think a reasonable countermeasure to build, to alleviate some downsides of this, is to also give authors a “let this user comment unfettered on my posts, even though the mod teams have generally restricted them in some way.”
(I don’t expect that to really resolve your crux here but it seemed like it’s at least an improvement on the margin)
4. I think it’s plausible that the right solution is to ban him from shortform, use shortform as the place where people can talk about whatever they want in a more open/curious vibe. I currently don’t think this is the right call because I just think it’s… just actually a super reasonable, centrally supported use-case of top level posts to have sets of norms that are actively curious and invested. It seems really wrong to me to think the only kind of conversation you need to make intellectual progress be “criticize without trying to figure out what the OP is about and what problems they’re trying to solve”.
I do think, for the case of Said, building out two high level normsets of “open/curious/cooperative” and “debate/adversarial collaboration/thicker-skin-required”, letting authors choose between them, and specifically banning Said from the former, is a viable option I’d consider. I think you have previously argued agains this, and Said expressed dissatisfaction with it elsewhere in this comment section.
(This solution probably wouldn’t address my concerns about Duncan though)
I am a little worried that this is a generalization that doesn’t line up with actual evidence on the ground, and instead is caused by some sort of vibe spiral. (I’m reluctant to suggest a lengthy evidence review, both because of the costs and because I’m somewhat uncertain of the benefits—if the problem is that lots of authors find Said annoying or his reactions unpredictable, and we review the record and say “actually Said isn’t annoying”, those authors are unlikely to find it convincing.)
In particular, I keep thinking about this comment (noting that I might be updating too much on one example). I think we have evidence that “Said can engage with open/curious/interpretative topics/posts in a productive way”, and should maybe try to figure out what was different that time.
I think in the sense of the general garden-style conflict (rather than Said/Duncan conflict specifically) this is the only satisfactory solution that’s currently apparent, users picking the norms they get to operate under, like Commenting Guidelines, but more meaningful in practice.
There should be for a start just two options, Athenian Garden and Socratic Garden, so that commenters can cheaply make decisions about what kinds of comments are appropriate for a particular post, without having to read custom guidelines.
Excellent. I predict that Said wouldn’t be averse to voluntarily not commenting on “open/curious/cooperative” posts, or not commenting there in the kind of style that adherents of that culture dislike, so that “specifically banning Said” from that is an unnecessary caveat.
Well, I’m glad you’re telling actual-me this rather than using your model of me. I count the fact your model of me is so egregiously poor (despite our having a number of interactions over the years) as a case study in favor of Said’s interaction style (of just asking people things, instead of falsely imagining that you can model them).
Yes, I would, actually, want to advocate for informing users about a feature that already exists that anyone can use, rather than writing new code specifically for the purpose of persecuting a particular user that you don’t like.
Analogously, if the town council of the city I live in passes a new tax increase, I might grumble about it, but I don’t regard it as a direct personal threat. If the town council passes a tax increase that applies specifically to my friend Said Achmiz, and no one else, that’s a threat to me and mine. A government that does that is not legitimate.
So, usually when people make this kind of “hostile paraphrase” in an argument, I tend to take it in stride. I mostly regard it as “part of the game”: I think most readers can tell the difference between an attempted fair paraphrase (which an author is expected to agree with) and an intentional hostile paraphrase (which is optimized to highlight a particular criticism, without the expectation that the author will agree with the paraphrase). I don’t tell people to be more charitable to me; I don’t ask them to pass my ideological Turing test; I just say, “That’s not what I meant,” and explain the idea again; I’m happy to do the extra work.
In this particular situation, I’m inclined to try out a different commenting style that involves me doing less interpretive labor. I think you know very well that “criticize without trying to figure out what the OP is about” is not what Said and I think is at issue. Do you think you can rephrase that sentence in a way that would pass Said’s ideological Turing test?
Right, so if someone complains about Said, point out that they’re free to strong-downvote him and that they’re free to ban him from their posts. That’s much less time-consuming than writing new code! (You’re welcome.)
Sorry, I thought your job was to run a website, not dictate to people how they should think and write? (Where part of running a website includes removing content that you don’t want on the website, but that’s not the same thing as decreeing that individuals must “integrat[e] the spirit-of-[your]-models into [their] commenting style”.) Was I mistaken about what your job is?
I am strongly opposed to this because I don’t think the proposed distinction cuts reality at the joints. (I’d be happy to elaborate on request, but will omit the detailed explanation now in order to keep this comment focused.)
We already let authors write their own moderation guidelines! It’s a blank text box! If someone happens to believe in this “cooperative vs. adversarial” false dichotomy, they can write about it in the text box! How is that not enough?
Because it’s a blank text box, it’s not convenient for commenters to read it in detail every time, so I expect almost nobody reads it, these guidelines are not practical to follow.
With two standard options, color-coded or something, it becomes actually practical, so the distinction between blank text box and two standard options is crucial. You might still caveat the standard options with additional blank text boxes, but being easy to classify without actually reading is the important part.
Also, moderation guidelines aren’t visible on GreaterWrong at all, afaict. So Said specifically is unlikely to adjust his commenting in response to those guidelines, unless that changes.
(I assume Said mostly uses GW, since he designed it.)
I’ve been busy, so hadn’t replied to this yet, but specifically wanted to apologize for the hostile paraphrase (I notice I’ve done that at least twice now in this thread, I’m trying to better but seems important for me to notice and pay attention to).
I think I the corrigible about actually integrating the spirit-of-our-models into his commenting style” line pretty badly, Oliver and Vaniver also both thought it was pretty alarming. The thing I was trying to say I eventually reworded in my subsequent mod announcement as:
i.e. this isn’t about Said changing this own thought process, but, like, there is a spirit-of-the-law relevant in the mod decision here, and whether I need to worry about specification-gaming.
I expect you to still object to that for various reasons, and I think it’s reasonable to be pretty suspicious of me for phrasing it the way I did the first time. (I think it does convey something sus about my thought process, but, fwiw I agree it is sus and am reflecting on it)
FYI, my response to this is is waiting for an answer to my question in the first paragraph of this comment.
I’m still uncertain how I feel about a lot of the details on this (and am enough of a lurker rather than poster that I suspect it’s not worth my time to figure that out / write it publicly), but I just wanted to say that I think this is an extremely good thing to include:
This strikes me basically as a way to move the mod team’s role more into “setting good defaults” and less “setting the only way things work”. How much y’all should move in that direction seems an open question, as it does limit how much cultivation you can do, but it seems like a very useful tool to make use of in some cases.
How technically troublesome would an allow list be?
Maybe the default is everyone gets three comments on a post. People the author has banned get zero, people the author has opted in for get unlimited, the author automatically gets unlimited comments on their own post, mods automatically get unlimited comments.
(Or if this feels more like a Said and/or Duncan specific issue, make the options “Unlimited”, “Limited”, and “None/Banned” then default to everyone at Unlimited except for Said and/or Duncan at Limited.)