If your definition of complexity says noise is complexity, then you need a new definition of complexity.
Yes, many useful definitions, like entropy measures or Kolmogorov complexity, say noise is complexity. But people studying complexity recognize that this is a problem. They are aware that the phenomenon they’re trying to get at when they say “complexity” is something different.
Well, I’m just trying to figure out what you tried to say when you replied to PhilGoetz:
Designers can well design things more complicated than they are.
Yes, but not without evolution. All that design adds to evolution is guidance. That is, if you took away evolution (this includes science and Bayesian methods) a designer could never design things more complicated (as in novel, as in better) than itself.
N designers, each of complexity K, can collectively design something of maximum complexity NK, simply by dividing up the work.
Co-evolution, which may be thought of as a pair of designers interacting through their joint design product, and with an unlimited random stream as supplementary input, can result in very complex designs as well as in the designers themselves becoming more complex through information acquired in the course of the interaction.
It is amusing to look at the Roman Catholic theology of the Trinity, with this kind of consideration in mind. As I remember it, the Deity was “originally” a unipartite, simple God, who then became more complex by contemplating Himself and then further contemplating that Contemplation.
For this reason, I have never been all that impressed by the “refutation” of the first cause argument; the refutation being that it supposedly requires a complex “first cause” God, Who is Himself in need of explanation. God could conceivably have been simple (as simple as a Big Bang, anyways) and then developed (some people would prefer to say “evolved”) under His own internal dynamics into something much more complex. Just as we atheists claim happened to the physical universe.
For this reason, I have never been all that impressed by the “refutation” of the first cause argument; the refutation being that it supposedly requires a complex “first cause” God, Who is Himself in need of explanation. God could conceivably have been simple (as simple as a Big Bang, anyways) and then developed (some people would prefer to say “evolved”) under His own internal dynamics into something much more complex. Just as we atheists claim happened to the physical universe.
Adapted refutation: if you’re going to suppose a complex God evolving from a simpler one and then acting on the universe, it is simpler to suppose a complex universe evolving from a simple one. The refutation still holds based on Occam’s razor.
For this reason, I have never been all that impressed by the “refutation” of the first cause argument; the refutation being that it supposedly requires a complex “first cause” God, Who is Himself in need of explanation. God could conceivably have been simple (as simple as a Big Bang, anyways) and then developed (some people would prefer to say “evolved”) under His own internal dynamics into something much more complex. Just as we atheists claim happened to the physical universe.
That simple “God” is the “God” of evolutionary theory. The “first mover” theory does require a complex first cause. It was made in ignorance of evolution, and assumes that a complex design requires an intelligent designer. Every last one of the defenders of the design theory denies that what you say is possible.
I was thinking in terms of Kolmogorov complexity. A Turing program generates an output string of complexity no greater than the size K of the program. Collectively, N different such Turing programs (plus a little glue logic) can generate a string of complexity NK.
If you have observations, that is source of randomness, you can generate output of arbitrary complexity.
Now, let’s step back and look at the whole picture. We were discussing a notion of ‘complexity’ such that evolved organisms gradually became more ‘complex’, and ‘designers’ which are themselves agents, possibly even evolved organisms, that can ‘design’ new things. We then consider that notion of ‘complexity’ as applied to ‘designers’ and ‘designs’ they can produce.
When informal notions are formalized, these formalizations should at least approximately relate to the original informal notions, otherwise we are changing the topic by bringing up these ‘formalizations’ and not actually making progress on understanding the original informal question.
K-complexity is something possessed by random noise. This notion does not reflect the measure of things by which evolution produced more ‘complex’ things than existed before (even if the ‘things’ produced by evolution are more K-complex than their early predecessors). And designers typically have access to randomness, which makes your model of ‘designers’ as programs without input wrong as well, hence conclusion about K-complexity of output incorrect, on top of K-complexity not adequately modeling the informal ‘complexity’.
All very true. Which is one reason I dislike all talk of “complexity”—particularly in such a fuzzy context as debates with creationists.
But we do all have some intuitions as to what we mean by complexity in this context. Someone, I believe it was you, has claimed in this thread that evolution can generate complexity. I assume you meant something other than “Evolution harnesses mutation as a random input and hence as a source of complexity”.
William Dembski is an “intelligent design theorist” (if that is not too much of an oxymoron) who has attempted to define a notion of “specified complexity” or “Complex Specified Information” (CSI). He has not, IMHO, succeeded in defining it clearly, but I think he is onto something. He asserts that biology exhibits CSI. I agree. He asserts that evolution under natural selection is incapable of generating CSI—claiming that NS can at best only transfer information from the environment to the genome. I am pretty sure he is wrong about this, but we need a clear and formal definition of CSI to even discuss the question intelligently.
So, I guess I want to turn your question around. Do you have some definition of “complexity” in mind which allows for correct mathematical thinking about these kinds of issues?
“NS can at best only transfer information from the environment to the genome.” Does this statement mean to suggest that the environment is not complex?
No. As I understand Dembski—at least when he was saying this kind of thing—he admitted that the environment could be complex and hence that NS could instill complexity in evolved organisms. “But”, he then suggested, “where did the complexity of the environment come from, if not from a Designer who crafted an environment capable of directing the evolution of man (in His own image, etc.)”
Dembski, these days, admits to being a YEC, but the reason he is a YEC is based on a kind of appeal to Occam. “If we believe in God anyways, for reasons of Theistic Evolution”, he seems to argue, “Why not take God at His word and believe in 6 days and the whole schtick?”
Do you have some definition of “complexity” in mind which allows for correct mathematical thinking about these kinds of issues?
Not in the context of this conversation (since genetic information stops increasing after a while and goes on optimizing under more or less the same ‘complexity’; ‘fitness’ is closer, although is a moving target), but in about the same sense I don’t have a definition of ‘aging’ that allows “correct mathematical thinking” about it.
Noise is complexity. Complexity is easy to increase. Evolutionary designs are interesting not because of their complexity.
If your definition of complexity says noise is complexity, then you need a new definition of complexity.
Yes, many useful definitions, like entropy measures or Kolmogorov complexity, say noise is complexity. But people studying complexity recognize that this is a problem. They are aware that the phenomenon they’re trying to get at when they say “complexity” is something different.
And that concept of “complexity” is probably too complex to be captured by a fundamental notions such as K-complexity.
Well, I’m just trying to figure out what you tried to say when you replied to PhilGoetz:
Yes, but not without evolution. All that design adds to evolution is guidance. That is, if you took away evolution (this includes science and Bayesian methods) a designer could never design things more complicated (as in novel, as in better) than itself.
N designers, each of complexity K, can collectively design something of maximum complexity NK, simply by dividing up the work.
Co-evolution, which may be thought of as a pair of designers interacting through their joint design product, and with an unlimited random stream as supplementary input, can result in very complex designs as well as in the designers themselves becoming more complex through information acquired in the course of the interaction.
It is amusing to look at the Roman Catholic theology of the Trinity, with this kind of consideration in mind. As I remember it, the Deity was “originally” a unipartite, simple God, who then became more complex by contemplating Himself and then further contemplating that Contemplation.
For this reason, I have never been all that impressed by the “refutation” of the first cause argument; the refutation being that it supposedly requires a complex “first cause” God, Who is Himself in need of explanation. God could conceivably have been simple (as simple as a Big Bang, anyways) and then developed (some people would prefer to say “evolved”) under His own internal dynamics into something much more complex. Just as we atheists claim happened to the physical universe.
Adapted refutation: if you’re going to suppose a complex God evolving from a simpler one and then acting on the universe, it is simpler to suppose a complex universe evolving from a simple one. The refutation still holds based on Occam’s razor.
Good point. Agreed.
That simple “God” is the “God” of evolutionary theory. The “first mover” theory does require a complex first cause. It was made in ignorance of evolution, and assumes that a complex design requires an intelligent designer. Every last one of the defenders of the design theory denies that what you say is possible.
Quite possibly. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with them.
What does it mean, exactly? (What’s ‘complexity’? What’s ‘something’ that can be ‘designed’?) Why do you believe it?
I was thinking in terms of Kolmogorov complexity. A Turing program generates an output string of complexity no greater than the size K of the program. Collectively, N different such Turing programs (plus a little glue logic) can generate a string of complexity NK.
If you have observations, that is source of randomness, you can generate output of arbitrary complexity.
Now, let’s step back and look at the whole picture. We were discussing a notion of ‘complexity’ such that evolved organisms gradually became more ‘complex’, and ‘designers’ which are themselves agents, possibly even evolved organisms, that can ‘design’ new things. We then consider that notion of ‘complexity’ as applied to ‘designers’ and ‘designs’ they can produce.
When informal notions are formalized, these formalizations should at least approximately relate to the original informal notions, otherwise we are changing the topic by bringing up these ‘formalizations’ and not actually making progress on understanding the original informal question.
K-complexity is something possessed by random noise. This notion does not reflect the measure of things by which evolution produced more ‘complex’ things than existed before (even if the ‘things’ produced by evolution are more K-complex than their early predecessors). And designers typically have access to randomness, which makes your model of ‘designers’ as programs without input wrong as well, hence conclusion about K-complexity of output incorrect, on top of K-complexity not adequately modeling the informal ‘complexity’.
All very true. Which is one reason I dislike all talk of “complexity”—particularly in such a fuzzy context as debates with creationists.
But we do all have some intuitions as to what we mean by complexity in this context. Someone, I believe it was you, has claimed in this thread that evolution can generate complexity. I assume you meant something other than “Evolution harnesses mutation as a random input and hence as a source of complexity”.
William Dembski is an “intelligent design theorist” (if that is not too much of an oxymoron) who has attempted to define a notion of “specified complexity” or “Complex Specified Information” (CSI). He has not, IMHO, succeeded in defining it clearly, but I think he is onto something. He asserts that biology exhibits CSI. I agree. He asserts that evolution under natural selection is incapable of generating CSI—claiming that NS can at best only transfer information from the environment to the genome. I am pretty sure he is wrong about this, but we need a clear and formal definition of CSI to even discuss the question intelligently.
So, I guess I want to turn your question around. Do you have some definition of “complexity” in mind which allows for correct mathematical thinking about these kinds of issues?
“NS can at best only transfer information from the environment to the genome.” Does this statement mean to suggest that the environment is not complex?
No. As I understand Dembski—at least when he was saying this kind of thing—he admitted that the environment could be complex and hence that NS could instill complexity in evolved organisms. “But”, he then suggested, “where did the complexity of the environment come from, if not from a Designer who crafted an environment capable of directing the evolution of man (in His own image, etc.)”
Dembski, these days, admits to being a YEC, but the reason he is a YEC is based on a kind of appeal to Occam. “If we believe in God anyways, for reasons of Theistic Evolution”, he seems to argue, “Why not take God at His word and believe in 6 days and the whole schtick?”
Not in the context of this conversation (since genetic information stops increasing after a while and goes on optimizing under more or less the same ‘complexity’; ‘fitness’ is closer, although is a moving target), but in about the same sense I don’t have a definition of ‘aging’ that allows “correct mathematical thinking” about it.