Okay, I don’t really think this is how it’ll go down—slightly too Dark Lordish. But the image was amusing, so here goes:
“It just happens that if Hermione doesn’t walk, everyone but me will lose the ability to cast Patronus. Don’t buy it? Oh, well, I’ll just explain it to Hermione and she’ll be able to testify under Veritaserum that I can do it.”
Or, you know, have Hermione figure it out herself from Harry’s note and do the blackmail herself.
Anyway, the blackmail potential for this is rather great, and I’d not be surprised to see it used in a more dire situation with more than Hermione on the line.
It occurs to me that this would actually be a potentially successful (if politically costly) way to force the Ministry to replace Azkaban with a more humane Nurmengard-style prison. The mere fact that it’s demonstrably possible for anyone to do this makes keeping Dementors around far less attractive.
What’s the in-story justification for the dementor’s presence anyway? I thought it seemed awfully convenient in case Harry decided to demonstrate his Patronus 2.0 but I couldn’t figure out how it’d help enough.
I’d forgotten about the potential for ruining others’ patronuses, though. That makes a lot more sense, especially considering he’d just reached into his dark side—possibly deeper than he’d ever willingly done before.
My guess: it wouldn’t be enough at this point to just demonstrate a superior patronus or tell people about the possibility of ruining it for others. He tells the secret to EVERYONE present, leaving them at his mercy for protection. That gives him plenty of bargaining power and is dramatically Dark to boot. The political implications would be rather interesting, whether the Patroni could be returned by Obliviation or not.
Combining with this idea: Harry openly speaks about Patronus 2.0, everyone’s Patronuses fail (especially the sparrow and squirrel currently guarding the Dementor, everyone would see them fail), Harry casts his Patronus to protect Hermione (or she figures it out and casts her own, not that she would get the chance to but she might figure it out at least), and the Dementor starts sucking souls until Lucius retracts his sentence.
Heck, maybe even threaten to spread Patronus 2.0 to the media, make wizarding Britain’s animal Patronus population fail, then Aurors won’t be able to keep their Patronuses up to guard Azkaban. So even if Hermione gets in, she wouldn’t get her happiness sucked...
This might work, in combination with something that I see others have suggested. You need some way to get them to listen. This would take a lot, given that they’re already recording the verdict. So: would the threat of destruction goad a dementor into breaking through two animal Patroni? Can Harry believe this would happen? (If so, coldly claiming that he can destroy Patronus ability might create enough doubt in the others’ minds that it wouldn’t matter if dementors follow expectations or not.)
This plan does have shortcomings, like the threat of killing someone’s mind (perhaps even Hermione’s) and the risk of revealing what he did in Azkaban (at least to MoR!Dumbledore).
Harry knew another patronus was seeking his own patronus, so I think he should at least know there’s a risk that someone might be able to identify him.
“It just happens that if Hermione doesn’t walk, everyone but me will lose the ability to cast Patronus. Don’t buy it? Oh, well, I’ll just explain it to Hermione and she’ll be able to testify under Veritaserum that I can do it.”
How exactly harry’s ability (technique) to cast a strong patronus will interfere with the ability of the others?
Harry opened his mouth, and then, as realization hit him, rapidly snapped his mouth shut again. Godric hadn’t told anyone, nor had Rowena if she’d known; there might have been any number of wizards who’d figured it out and kept their mouths shut. You couldn’t forget if you knew that was what you were trying to do; once you realized how it worked, the animal form of the Patronus Charm would never work for you again—and most wizards didn’t have the right upbringing to turn on Dementors and destroy them -
We know that Obliviation doesn’t erase everything—it erases memories but not every effect of the experience it erases. We’ve even seen it in story—Rianne Felthorne felt sad when looking at her “found” ruby. McGonnagall also hypothesized that Harry might have been abused(or otherwise experienced something awful) and then Obliviated.
Either way, I’m curious how this effect would interact with something like this.
If Harry told you the secret of the True Patronus(and you weren’t the sort of person who could kill Dementors with that knowledge) and you Obliviated yourself, would that be enough to restore the capacity to use an animal Patronus?
But this part is not strong enough:
“Oh, well, I’ll just explain it to Hermione and she’ll be able to testify under Veritaserum that I can do it.”
They could claim Hermione being able to testify under Veritaserum is only enough to prove that Harry could convince her, not that the thing itself was true.
It’s more ethically dubious, but in theory he could do it to one person who could cast the Patronus Charm, have them testify under Veritaserum that they were no longer capable of it as a consequence of what Harry told them, then Obliviate them of the specifics- even if it doesn’t restore their ability, at least it prevents them from affecting anyone else. Then the issue is proving they’re not Occlumens.
But it’s not like I’m advocating this idea, or anything.
Yeah, I kinda lost track of which part of the conversation this was- Amelia Bones would be useful as the Head of the DMLE, which presumably runs the prison system (thus would be in a position to suggest / implement a Dementorless Reformation). Plus she’s always surrounded by subordinate Aurors who can cast a Patronus, so it wouldn’t put her in much immediate danger.
Plus I kinda half-subscribe to the theory that she killed Narcissa.
Okay, I don’t really think this is how it’ll go down—slightly too Dark Lordish. But the image was amusing, so here goes:
“It just happens that if Hermione doesn’t walk, everyone but me will lose the ability to cast Patronus. Don’t buy it? Oh, well, I’ll just explain it to Hermione and she’ll be able to testify under Veritaserum that I can do it.”
Or, you know, have Hermione figure it out herself from Harry’s note and do the blackmail herself.
Anyway, the blackmail potential for this is rather great, and I’d not be surprised to see it used in a more dire situation with more than Hermione on the line.
It occurs to me that this would actually be a potentially successful (if politically costly) way to force the Ministry to replace Azkaban with a more humane Nurmengard-style prison. The mere fact that it’s demonstrably possible for anyone to do this makes keeping Dementors around far less attractive.
What’s the in-story justification for the dementor’s presence anyway? I thought it seemed awfully convenient in case Harry decided to demonstrate his Patronus 2.0 but I couldn’t figure out how it’d help enough.
I’d forgotten about the potential for ruining others’ patronuses, though. That makes a lot more sense, especially considering he’d just reached into his dark side—possibly deeper than he’d ever willingly done before.
My guess: it wouldn’t be enough at this point to just demonstrate a superior patronus or tell people about the possibility of ruining it for others. He tells the secret to EVERYONE present, leaving them at his mercy for protection. That gives him plenty of bargaining power and is dramatically Dark to boot. The political implications would be rather interesting, whether the Patroni could be returned by Obliviation or not.
To protect Wizengamot members from dangerous criminals brought before them.
Combining with this idea: Harry openly speaks about Patronus 2.0, everyone’s Patronuses fail (especially the sparrow and squirrel currently guarding the Dementor, everyone would see them fail), Harry casts his Patronus to protect Hermione (or she figures it out and casts her own, not that she would get the chance to but she might figure it out at least), and the Dementor starts sucking souls until Lucius retracts his sentence.
Heck, maybe even threaten to spread Patronus 2.0 to the media, make wizarding Britain’s animal Patronus population fail, then Aurors won’t be able to keep their Patronuses up to guard Azkaban. So even if Hermione gets in, she wouldn’t get her happiness sucked...
Hermione is chained and I’d be very surprised if she still had her wand.
This might work, in combination with something that I see others have suggested. You need some way to get them to listen. This would take a lot, given that they’re already recording the verdict. So: would the threat of destruction goad a dementor into breaking through two animal Patroni? Can Harry believe this would happen? (If so, coldly claiming that he can destroy Patronus ability might create enough doubt in the others’ minds that it wouldn’t matter if dementors follow expectations or not.)
This plan does have shortcomings, like the threat of killing someone’s mind (perhaps even Hermione’s) and the risk of revealing what he did in Azkaban (at least to MoR!Dumbledore).
Harry doesn’t know of this risk. If we’re modelling harry we should discount it.
Harry knew another patronus was seeking his own patronus, so I think he should at least know there’s a risk that someone might be able to identify him.
I don’t get it.
“It just happens that if Hermione doesn’t walk, everyone but me will lose the ability to cast Patronus. Don’t buy it? Oh, well, I’ll just explain it to Hermione and she’ll be able to testify under Veritaserum that I can do it.”
How exactly harry’s ability (technique) to cast a strong patronus will interfere with the ability of the others?
I’m curious now...
We know that Obliviation doesn’t erase everything—it erases memories but not every effect of the experience it erases. We’ve even seen it in story—Rianne Felthorne felt sad when looking at her “found” ruby. McGonnagall also hypothesized that Harry might have been abused(or otherwise experienced something awful) and then Obliviated.
Either way, I’m curious how this effect would interact with something like this.
If Harry told you the secret of the True Patronus(and you weren’t the sort of person who could kill Dementors with that knowledge) and you Obliviated yourself, would that be enough to restore the capacity to use an animal Patronus?
Got it.
But this part is not strong enough: “Oh, well, I’ll just explain it to Hermione and she’ll be able to testify under Veritaserum that I can do it.”
They could claim Hermione being able to testify under Veritaserum is only enough to prove that Harry could convince her, not that the thing itself was true.
It’s more ethically dubious, but in theory he could do it to one person who could cast the Patronus Charm, have them testify under Veritaserum that they were no longer capable of it as a consequence of what Harry told them, then Obliviate them of the specifics- even if it doesn’t restore their ability, at least it prevents them from affecting anyone else. Then the issue is proving they’re not Occlumens.
But it’s not like I’m advocating this idea, or anything.
ETA: Oh! He could do it to Amelia Bones!
Or even Dumbledore.
Someone who isn’t likely to be Veritaserum-proof is probably a better candidate for this plan.
You’re right, but I’d expect Bones to be Veritaserum-proof as well.
Maybe McGonagall?
Yeah, I kinda lost track of which part of the conversation this was- Amelia Bones would be useful as the Head of the DMLE, which presumably runs the prison system (thus would be in a position to suggest / implement a Dementorless Reformation). Plus she’s always surrounded by subordinate Aurors who can cast a Patronus, so it wouldn’t put her in much immediate danger.
Plus I kinda half-subscribe to the theory that she killed Narcissa.