How about “There’s no solid evidence for a gender bit in the brain. While many or most transgender people feel something, explaining that feeling as “I’m an X brain trapped in a non-X body” is essentially a memetic phenomenon. Additionally, genderqueer and non-binary persons are typically participants in a memetic fad.”
I think that’s what I believe; summarizing this as “trans people are delusional” seems harsh and uncharitable to me, but I can see how someone might say that’s exactly what it is. If you think now that the above is obviously wrong, I’m very interested in arguments/evidence.
Well, obviously it’s far more complicated than one bit; like most brain features, it’s built into the structure of the brain in a somewhat or totally distributed fashion, and through some developmental quirk, some or all of that structure develops in a way inappropriate to their DNA and physical layout. The more complex it is, the more I would expect genderqueer and nonbinary people to be common from increasingly nonstandard configurations of whatever that structure looks like as opposed to fairly limited values it could take on (at least the two).
Most trans people I know felt extremely uncomfortable with their sexual characteristics and assigned gender before ever hearing of the concept of a transsexual person; my ex-boyfriend jokes that he really should have figured it out sooner, given how he would devour literally any media that had crossdressing main characters, and he was raised heavily-Orthodox Jewish where the concept was not at all available. This is a pretty significant obstacle to it being a memetic phenomenon in all/most cases.
I would agree that it’s to some degree a memetic fad in the case of nonbinary/genderqueer people; definitely a number of people I know slide around somewhat on the gender spectrum in what seems to be a semi-deliberate act of protest against restrictive gender norms rather than particular pain at being called the gender they were raised as. But there are also nonbinary people whose beliefs are much more deeply held, and who feel intense, crippling emotional pain (i.e. are triggered) when referred to as their raised gender rather than their chosen gender. Generally these people find the opposite binary painful to a significantly lesser extent, which supports the idea that they might be physiologically/neurologically indistinguishable from binary trans people, but they’re definitely distinct from the weaker category of nonbinary identification. This is probably a necessary stopping point on the path to the inevitable death of socially-constructed gender.
In short, I think your position, while more reasonable than my past one, is mixing up a couple different phenomena and missing some data, and drawing broad, false conclusions as a result.
I read an article once about the hijra, a third gender in India. What surprised me at the time was that some hijra were adamant that they were not transgender in the western sense, seeing it as foreign and strange, whereas others would have preferred a binary transgender identity had it been available in their culture. So some strongly viewed hijra as what they really wanted to be, but others saw it only as a consolation prize because their culture didn’t include the concept of transitioning to the other binary gender.
I walked away from this thinking that the cultural component of gender can’t be overlooked. Gender is ultimately a compromise between the individual and categories provided by the culture. I can even imagine, that if one had two very different cultures and were able to completely replicate a particular infant, atom for atom, it’s possible in one culture they would identify as male, and in the other as female.
But there are also nonbinary people whose beliefs are much more deeply held, and who feel intense, crippling emotional pain (i.e. are triggered) when referred to as their raised gender rather than their chosen gender.
Yes, people tend to have that reaction when faced with something that contradicts some aspect of the identity they’ve adopted (for whatever reason). I’m pretty sure creationists, for example, have the same reaction to people arguing for evolution.
Probably a lot of different things, for example: revulsion at some of the traditional gender roles and behaviors. Negative emotions about their sexual organs. Intense erotic pleasure while imagining themselves the opposite sex. Anxiety due to not feeling what they think the person of their sex is supposed to feel.
Why do you think such a meme would spread or originate, if not due to its truth value?
Memes that provide an explanation of one’s behavior in terms of one’s identity are insanely powerful. They spread because they lead you from from “I don’t understand why I’m like this” to “I understand why I’m like this”, and the latter feeling is something we all lust for.
The truth value is not especially important to the initial spread of an attractive identity-meme. Consider that “people are born gay” is almost a dogma in the LGBT community and liberal circles, although the available scientific understanding sharply contradicts it. Or recall that the 19th century saw a very potent meme in which gay people self-identified as “the third sex”, “a female psyche in a male body”. It seems that many gay people in the 19th century really felt very strongly that they have a “female psyche” or a “female soul”, similarly to how today many biological-X transgender people feel very strongly that they have a “non-X brain”.
The article is behind a login wall. It would help linking directly to studies instead of a badly accessible article about them.
To guess at the point, we find that obesity within the US has a strong genetic component. On the other hand we find that obesity strongly changes over the time span of decades.
The fact that something seems to be genetic within one population seems no good evidence that there are no societal factors involved.
The article wasn’t mentioning genetics, it was about nMRIs.
The problem with nMRI scans is that if you believe in physicalism, you’d expect every aspect of someone to show up on a sufficiently advanced brain scan. Also, I wonder how many brain regions they tried before finding one that displayed the correct pattern.
Humans are made of both biological and memetic (social) stuff, though. It’s famously difficult to ascribe any particular behavior to just one or the other—the old nature/nurture debate being one aspect of that—but even if you could, you can’t necessarily describe one side of that as more “real” than the other side—I am both my flesh and its neural activation patterns. One reason I believe most transgender people describe a purely physical (brain) basis is that using the language of desire is severely socially proscribed: it’s not viewed as OK to merely say “I want to be a man/woman” the same way someone can say “I want to be an architect”, although in both cases a person may simply be looking around at the various roles their society has on offer and finding some desirable than others.
This phenomenon isn’t limited to transgender people; even 15 years ago gays and lesbians were viewed more negatively by society, and magazines would run articles about “the gay gene,” despite the lack of evidence for its existence. Nowadays, in a much more tolerant culture, you can find people who say that they “choose to be gay.” A similar evolution in transgender self-description could happen if society becomes more tolerant.
So, I think this is actually evidence simply that behaviors or accomplishments viewed as highly unusual (either positive or negative) are often ascribed to a physical basis, whereas anything perceived as being in the normal range of human behavior in the culture is seen simply as the individual’s choice or self expression. This doesn’t actually tell you anything about the cause of the action or desire—we can’t do the kind of experiments that would be necessary to find that out. For all we know, desiring to be a particular gender, or desiring to have a particular occupation are similar mixes of built-in brain organization, body chemistry, psychological imprinting, culture, and both conscious and subconscious weighing given the individual’s other abilities and limitations.
So, I think this is actually evidence simply that behaviors or accomplishments viewed as highly unusual (either positive or negative) are often ascribed to a physical basis, whereas anything perceived as being in the normal range of human behavior in the culture is seen simply as the individual’s choice or self expression.
I’m not sure about that. The being gay/trans is inborn thing was concocted to better fit the mold generated by the blacks’ and women’s rights movement which relied on arguing that it’s wrong to “discriminate” against people for something that’s not their fault.
Do you have evidence that it is or is not inherent? For evidence of gayness being inborn there is the digit ratio where if you scroll down to sexual orientation you’ll see that lesbians have a lower average digit ratio. This has been suggested to be affected by androgens like testosterone while in the uterus. This is evidence that sexuality is inborn. If true the obvious parallel is that a person can no more change their sexuality than choose to have one finger grow more than the other.
Edit: Having just looked around, It seems there is a long list of differences between homosexual and heterosexual humans. This is very strong evidence that people are born with their sexuality.
Edit 2: is that a downvote for going to close to the realms of politics? I’m still getting used to the conventions around here
The list you mention is not very strong evidence that “people are born with their sexuality”. It’s a list of correlations of varying quality and effect size that is subject to strong publication bias. More importantly, all of these correlations are perfectly compatible with the possibility that genetic/prenatal factors only partially influence one’s sexual orientation rather than completely determine it.
Please read the section on twin studies that opens the Wiki page you referenced. The epidemiological twin studies are probably the strongest evidence we currently have, and they suggest that genetic factors play a role but do not determine sexual orientation.
Thank you, I was not expecting that. It is time to update my beliefs. I knew I had lots that were not based on proper evidence gathering, but I was not expecting such strongly held beliefs to be so easily falsifiable. It would appear I have a ways to go. On the upside I at least now have an intuitive understanding of how being wrong feels exactly like being right whereas before I only had an intellectual understanding. I suspect I shall have to beat myself about the head with that memory
I’m trying to figure out what this implies for the gay/trans rights movement and those pray the gay away camps kids get sent to. I would like to think people should still be able to decide on their own in the absence of judgement or coercion, but I’m less sure now.
I would like to think people should still be able to decide on their own in the absence of judgement or coercion
What do you mean by this? While you believed that people had no choice about being gay/trans, you didn’t seem to be at all bothered by the lack of choice.
With my previous (incorrect) knowledge, attempting to influence someone’s sexuality had no redeeming features. Its only effect was to create confusion, self loathing and other negative effects/emotions in adolescents. If, however it can be effected by the environment then there exist situations, possibly controllable situations where children can be systematically influenced to one sexuality or other.
My immediate reaction is that people should still be able to figure it out for themselves, but the situation is less black and white than before. If for example gays turn out to be significantly happier and more productive throughout their life than straight people, does it then become moral to attempt to influence potential homosexuals to increase their changes of becoming gay? The opposite argument also exists if you replace gay with straight in the previous sentence. It is no longer an open and shut case, there exist worlds where the optimal thing to do is morally repugnant to me. It pits my value for autonomy against my value of optimality.
you didn’t seem to be at all bothered by the lack of choice.
How can you tell?
In particular, what reason do you have to think that Jackercrack’s former position was not something like this?
Beyond early childhood, no one has any substantial ability to change (1) whether they are sexually/romantically attracted to men, women, both, neither, etc., or (2) whether they find it highly distressing to have the sort of body they have rather than (e.g.) one with different sexual characteristics.
For exactly that reason, attempting to change those things is futile and the most likely effect is to distress the people it’s applied to.
In particular, it should be up to them what sexual orientation they see themselves as having, what gender they present as, etc.
Not because they have a free choice about it, but because the alternative to leaving it up to them is for someone else to tell them what they have to be, in which case sometimes it won’t match what they more-or-less-unalterably very much want it to be, and then they’ll be miserable.
Hmm, “delusional” is a bit underspecified.
How about “There’s no solid evidence for a gender bit in the brain. While many or most transgender people feel something, explaining that feeling as “I’m an X brain trapped in a non-X body” is essentially a memetic phenomenon. Additionally, genderqueer and non-binary persons are typically participants in a memetic fad.”
I think that’s what I believe; summarizing this as “trans people are delusional” seems harsh and uncharitable to me, but I can see how someone might say that’s exactly what it is. If you think now that the above is obviously wrong, I’m very interested in arguments/evidence.
Well, obviously it’s far more complicated than one bit; like most brain features, it’s built into the structure of the brain in a somewhat or totally distributed fashion, and through some developmental quirk, some or all of that structure develops in a way inappropriate to their DNA and physical layout. The more complex it is, the more I would expect genderqueer and nonbinary people to be common from increasingly nonstandard configurations of whatever that structure looks like as opposed to fairly limited values it could take on (at least the two).
Most trans people I know felt extremely uncomfortable with their sexual characteristics and assigned gender before ever hearing of the concept of a transsexual person; my ex-boyfriend jokes that he really should have figured it out sooner, given how he would devour literally any media that had crossdressing main characters, and he was raised heavily-Orthodox Jewish where the concept was not at all available. This is a pretty significant obstacle to it being a memetic phenomenon in all/most cases.
I would agree that it’s to some degree a memetic fad in the case of nonbinary/genderqueer people; definitely a number of people I know slide around somewhat on the gender spectrum in what seems to be a semi-deliberate act of protest against restrictive gender norms rather than particular pain at being called the gender they were raised as. But there are also nonbinary people whose beliefs are much more deeply held, and who feel intense, crippling emotional pain (i.e. are triggered) when referred to as their raised gender rather than their chosen gender. Generally these people find the opposite binary painful to a significantly lesser extent, which supports the idea that they might be physiologically/neurologically indistinguishable from binary trans people, but they’re definitely distinct from the weaker category of nonbinary identification. This is probably a necessary stopping point on the path to the inevitable death of socially-constructed gender.
In short, I think your position, while more reasonable than my past one, is mixing up a couple different phenomena and missing some data, and drawing broad, false conclusions as a result.
I read an article once about the hijra, a third gender in India. What surprised me at the time was that some hijra were adamant that they were not transgender in the western sense, seeing it as foreign and strange, whereas others would have preferred a binary transgender identity had it been available in their culture. So some strongly viewed hijra as what they really wanted to be, but others saw it only as a consolation prize because their culture didn’t include the concept of transitioning to the other binary gender.
I walked away from this thinking that the cultural component of gender can’t be overlooked. Gender is ultimately a compromise between the individual and categories provided by the culture. I can even imagine, that if one had two very different cultures and were able to completely replicate a particular infant, atom for atom, it’s possible in one culture they would identify as male, and in the other as female.
Yes, people tend to have that reaction when faced with something that contradicts some aspect of the identity they’ve adopted (for whatever reason). I’m pretty sure creationists, for example, have the same reaction to people arguing for evolution.
What do you think that something is that they feel?
Why do you think such a meme would spread or originate, if not due to its truth value?
Probably a lot of different things, for example: revulsion at some of the traditional gender roles and behaviors. Negative emotions about their sexual organs. Intense erotic pleasure while imagining themselves the opposite sex. Anxiety due to not feeling what they think the person of their sex is supposed to feel.
Memes that provide an explanation of one’s behavior in terms of one’s identity are insanely powerful. They spread because they lead you from from “I don’t understand why I’m like this” to “I understand why I’m like this”, and the latter feeling is something we all lust for.
The truth value is not especially important to the initial spread of an attractive identity-meme. Consider that “people are born gay” is almost a dogma in the LGBT community and liberal circles, although the available scientific understanding sharply contradicts it. Or recall that the 19th century saw a very potent meme in which gay people self-identified as “the third sex”, “a female psyche in a male body”. It seems that many gay people in the 19th century really felt very strongly that they have a “female psyche” or a “female soul”, similarly to how today many biological-X transgender people feel very strongly that they have a “non-X brain”.
That historical example did a lot to persuade me. Do you have any others similar to it?
I used to share your position, but moved away from it. The main reason I did is studies such as the ones mentioned in this article:
http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304854804579234030532617704.
How do you explain such results?
The article is behind a login wall. It would help linking directly to studies instead of a badly accessible article about them.
To guess at the point, we find that obesity within the US has a strong genetic component. On the other hand we find that obesity strongly changes over the time span of decades. The fact that something seems to be genetic within one population seems no good evidence that there are no societal factors involved.
I didn’t know there was a login wall. Try this one: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.VEgMHPSTZD0?
The article wasn’t mentioning genetics, it was about nMRIs.
The problem with nMRI scans is that if you believe in physicalism, you’d expect every aspect of someone to show up on a sufficiently advanced brain scan. Also, I wonder how many brain regions they tried before finding one that displayed the correct pattern.
Humans are made of both biological and memetic (social) stuff, though. It’s famously difficult to ascribe any particular behavior to just one or the other—the old nature/nurture debate being one aspect of that—but even if you could, you can’t necessarily describe one side of that as more “real” than the other side—I am both my flesh and its neural activation patterns. One reason I believe most transgender people describe a purely physical (brain) basis is that using the language of desire is severely socially proscribed: it’s not viewed as OK to merely say “I want to be a man/woman” the same way someone can say “I want to be an architect”, although in both cases a person may simply be looking around at the various roles their society has on offer and finding some desirable than others.
This phenomenon isn’t limited to transgender people; even 15 years ago gays and lesbians were viewed more negatively by society, and magazines would run articles about “the gay gene,” despite the lack of evidence for its existence. Nowadays, in a much more tolerant culture, you can find people who say that they “choose to be gay.” A similar evolution in transgender self-description could happen if society becomes more tolerant.
So, I think this is actually evidence simply that behaviors or accomplishments viewed as highly unusual (either positive or negative) are often ascribed to a physical basis, whereas anything perceived as being in the normal range of human behavior in the culture is seen simply as the individual’s choice or self expression. This doesn’t actually tell you anything about the cause of the action or desire—we can’t do the kind of experiments that would be necessary to find that out. For all we know, desiring to be a particular gender, or desiring to have a particular occupation are similar mixes of built-in brain organization, body chemistry, psychological imprinting, culture, and both conscious and subconscious weighing given the individual’s other abilities and limitations.
I’m not sure about that. The being gay/trans is inborn thing was concocted to better fit the mold generated by the blacks’ and women’s rights movement which relied on arguing that it’s wrong to “discriminate” against people for something that’s not their fault.
Do you have evidence that it is or is not inherent? For evidence of gayness being inborn there is the digit ratio where if you scroll down to sexual orientation you’ll see that lesbians have a lower average digit ratio. This has been suggested to be affected by androgens like testosterone while in the uterus. This is evidence that sexuality is inborn. If true the obvious parallel is that a person can no more change their sexuality than choose to have one finger grow more than the other.
Edit: Having just looked around, It seems there is a long list of differences between homosexual and heterosexual humans. This is very strong evidence that people are born with their sexuality.
Edit 2: is that a downvote for going to close to the realms of politics? I’m still getting used to the conventions around here
The list you mention is not very strong evidence that “people are born with their sexuality”. It’s a list of correlations of varying quality and effect size that is subject to strong publication bias. More importantly, all of these correlations are perfectly compatible with the possibility that genetic/prenatal factors only partially influence one’s sexual orientation rather than completely determine it.
Please read the section on twin studies that opens the Wiki page you referenced. The epidemiological twin studies are probably the strongest evidence we currently have, and they suggest that genetic factors play a role but do not determine sexual orientation.
Thank you, I was not expecting that. It is time to update my beliefs. I knew I had lots that were not based on proper evidence gathering, but I was not expecting such strongly held beliefs to be so easily falsifiable. It would appear I have a ways to go. On the upside I at least now have an intuitive understanding of how being wrong feels exactly like being right whereas before I only had an intellectual understanding. I suspect I shall have to beat myself about the head with that memory
I’m trying to figure out what this implies for the gay/trans rights movement and those pray the gay away camps kids get sent to. I would like to think people should still be able to decide on their own in the absence of judgement or coercion, but I’m less sure now.
What do you mean by this? While you believed that people had no choice about being gay/trans, you didn’t seem to be at all bothered by the lack of choice.
With my previous (incorrect) knowledge, attempting to influence someone’s sexuality had no redeeming features. Its only effect was to create confusion, self loathing and other negative effects/emotions in adolescents. If, however it can be effected by the environment then there exist situations, possibly controllable situations where children can be systematically influenced to one sexuality or other.
My immediate reaction is that people should still be able to figure it out for themselves, but the situation is less black and white than before. If for example gays turn out to be significantly happier and more productive throughout their life than straight people, does it then become moral to attempt to influence potential homosexuals to increase their changes of becoming gay? The opposite argument also exists if you replace gay with straight in the previous sentence. It is no longer an open and shut case, there exist worlds where the optimal thing to do is morally repugnant to me. It pits my value for autonomy against my value of optimality.
How can you tell?
In particular, what reason do you have to think that Jackercrack’s former position was not something like this?
Beyond early childhood, no one has any substantial ability to change (1) whether they are sexually/romantically attracted to men, women, both, neither, etc., or (2) whether they find it highly distressing to have the sort of body they have rather than (e.g.) one with different sexual characteristics.
For exactly that reason, attempting to change those things is futile and the most likely effect is to distress the people it’s applied to.
In particular, it should be up to them what sexual orientation they see themselves as having, what gender they present as, etc.
Not because they have a free choice about it, but because the alternative to leaving it up to them is for someone else to tell them what they have to be, in which case sometimes it won’t match what they more-or-less-unalterably very much want it to be, and then they’ll be miserable.
How sure are you that it is more common? How do you know?
It appears to me to have moved in the opposite direction.