So, I think this is actually evidence simply that behaviors or accomplishments viewed as highly unusual (either positive or negative) are often ascribed to a physical basis, whereas anything perceived as being in the normal range of human behavior in the culture is seen simply as the individual’s choice or self expression.
I’m not sure about that. The being gay/trans is inborn thing was concocted to better fit the mold generated by the blacks’ and women’s rights movement which relied on arguing that it’s wrong to “discriminate” against people for something that’s not their fault.
Do you have evidence that it is or is not inherent? For evidence of gayness being inborn there is the digit ratio where if you scroll down to sexual orientation you’ll see that lesbians have a lower average digit ratio. This has been suggested to be affected by androgens like testosterone while in the uterus. This is evidence that sexuality is inborn. If true the obvious parallel is that a person can no more change their sexuality than choose to have one finger grow more than the other.
Edit: Having just looked around, It seems there is a long list of differences between homosexual and heterosexual humans. This is very strong evidence that people are born with their sexuality.
Edit 2: is that a downvote for going to close to the realms of politics? I’m still getting used to the conventions around here
The list you mention is not very strong evidence that “people are born with their sexuality”. It’s a list of correlations of varying quality and effect size that is subject to strong publication bias. More importantly, all of these correlations are perfectly compatible with the possibility that genetic/prenatal factors only partially influence one’s sexual orientation rather than completely determine it.
Please read the section on twin studies that opens the Wiki page you referenced. The epidemiological twin studies are probably the strongest evidence we currently have, and they suggest that genetic factors play a role but do not determine sexual orientation.
Thank you, I was not expecting that. It is time to update my beliefs. I knew I had lots that were not based on proper evidence gathering, but I was not expecting such strongly held beliefs to be so easily falsifiable. It would appear I have a ways to go. On the upside I at least now have an intuitive understanding of how being wrong feels exactly like being right whereas before I only had an intellectual understanding. I suspect I shall have to beat myself about the head with that memory
I’m trying to figure out what this implies for the gay/trans rights movement and those pray the gay away camps kids get sent to. I would like to think people should still be able to decide on their own in the absence of judgement or coercion, but I’m less sure now.
I would like to think people should still be able to decide on their own in the absence of judgement or coercion
What do you mean by this? While you believed that people had no choice about being gay/trans, you didn’t seem to be at all bothered by the lack of choice.
With my previous (incorrect) knowledge, attempting to influence someone’s sexuality had no redeeming features. Its only effect was to create confusion, self loathing and other negative effects/emotions in adolescents. If, however it can be effected by the environment then there exist situations, possibly controllable situations where children can be systematically influenced to one sexuality or other.
My immediate reaction is that people should still be able to figure it out for themselves, but the situation is less black and white than before. If for example gays turn out to be significantly happier and more productive throughout their life than straight people, does it then become moral to attempt to influence potential homosexuals to increase their changes of becoming gay? The opposite argument also exists if you replace gay with straight in the previous sentence. It is no longer an open and shut case, there exist worlds where the optimal thing to do is morally repugnant to me. It pits my value for autonomy against my value of optimality.
you didn’t seem to be at all bothered by the lack of choice.
How can you tell?
In particular, what reason do you have to think that Jackercrack’s former position was not something like this?
Beyond early childhood, no one has any substantial ability to change (1) whether they are sexually/romantically attracted to men, women, both, neither, etc., or (2) whether they find it highly distressing to have the sort of body they have rather than (e.g.) one with different sexual characteristics.
For exactly that reason, attempting to change those things is futile and the most likely effect is to distress the people it’s applied to.
In particular, it should be up to them what sexual orientation they see themselves as having, what gender they present as, etc.
Not because they have a free choice about it, but because the alternative to leaving it up to them is for someone else to tell them what they have to be, in which case sometimes it won’t match what they more-or-less-unalterably very much want it to be, and then they’ll be miserable.
I’m not sure about that. The being gay/trans is inborn thing was concocted to better fit the mold generated by the blacks’ and women’s rights movement which relied on arguing that it’s wrong to “discriminate” against people for something that’s not their fault.
Do you have evidence that it is or is not inherent? For evidence of gayness being inborn there is the digit ratio where if you scroll down to sexual orientation you’ll see that lesbians have a lower average digit ratio. This has been suggested to be affected by androgens like testosterone while in the uterus. This is evidence that sexuality is inborn. If true the obvious parallel is that a person can no more change their sexuality than choose to have one finger grow more than the other.
Edit: Having just looked around, It seems there is a long list of differences between homosexual and heterosexual humans. This is very strong evidence that people are born with their sexuality.
Edit 2: is that a downvote for going to close to the realms of politics? I’m still getting used to the conventions around here
The list you mention is not very strong evidence that “people are born with their sexuality”. It’s a list of correlations of varying quality and effect size that is subject to strong publication bias. More importantly, all of these correlations are perfectly compatible with the possibility that genetic/prenatal factors only partially influence one’s sexual orientation rather than completely determine it.
Please read the section on twin studies that opens the Wiki page you referenced. The epidemiological twin studies are probably the strongest evidence we currently have, and they suggest that genetic factors play a role but do not determine sexual orientation.
Thank you, I was not expecting that. It is time to update my beliefs. I knew I had lots that were not based on proper evidence gathering, but I was not expecting such strongly held beliefs to be so easily falsifiable. It would appear I have a ways to go. On the upside I at least now have an intuitive understanding of how being wrong feels exactly like being right whereas before I only had an intellectual understanding. I suspect I shall have to beat myself about the head with that memory
I’m trying to figure out what this implies for the gay/trans rights movement and those pray the gay away camps kids get sent to. I would like to think people should still be able to decide on their own in the absence of judgement or coercion, but I’m less sure now.
What do you mean by this? While you believed that people had no choice about being gay/trans, you didn’t seem to be at all bothered by the lack of choice.
With my previous (incorrect) knowledge, attempting to influence someone’s sexuality had no redeeming features. Its only effect was to create confusion, self loathing and other negative effects/emotions in adolescents. If, however it can be effected by the environment then there exist situations, possibly controllable situations where children can be systematically influenced to one sexuality or other.
My immediate reaction is that people should still be able to figure it out for themselves, but the situation is less black and white than before. If for example gays turn out to be significantly happier and more productive throughout their life than straight people, does it then become moral to attempt to influence potential homosexuals to increase their changes of becoming gay? The opposite argument also exists if you replace gay with straight in the previous sentence. It is no longer an open and shut case, there exist worlds where the optimal thing to do is morally repugnant to me. It pits my value for autonomy against my value of optimality.
How can you tell?
In particular, what reason do you have to think that Jackercrack’s former position was not something like this?
Beyond early childhood, no one has any substantial ability to change (1) whether they are sexually/romantically attracted to men, women, both, neither, etc., or (2) whether they find it highly distressing to have the sort of body they have rather than (e.g.) one with different sexual characteristics.
For exactly that reason, attempting to change those things is futile and the most likely effect is to distress the people it’s applied to.
In particular, it should be up to them what sexual orientation they see themselves as having, what gender they present as, etc.
Not because they have a free choice about it, but because the alternative to leaving it up to them is for someone else to tell them what they have to be, in which case sometimes it won’t match what they more-or-less-unalterably very much want it to be, and then they’ll be miserable.