A long comment and one that seems to draw conclusions that are not really supported by my too short post (I really shouldn’t have posted in Comments). But the comment poses a few point’s I’d like to address.
The core problem here is that the child is behaving in a way that you do not want them to behave in.
Wanting the child to do something is one reason. Concrete needs another. You wouldn’t disagree that I’d need to call back a small child from a high traffic street or a cliff or a dangerous animal or a poisonous thing. These are immediate and obvious. How much time to take with a child that want’s to pick up stones when you are on the way to kindergarten or the job is a moderate need you have to balance your own desires with the childs.
Maintaining a household with six persons can mean one does everything or all share a part of the work. And there are lots of differnt ways to achieve some balance of needs in this. But whatever the balance is—it involves certain feedback. Talking alone will not do it—although it is necccessary to establish a context.
the trump card: “If you do X, I will be sad and disappointed in you.”
I can’t use that. First of all it would be a lie. I wouldn’t be sad or disappointed. At worst I would ask me what I did wrong in the first place. Second I can’t bear applying emotional pressure. Third I have seen it used on my children and it didn’t work.
The main trouble with my approach is that [...] older parents try this approach, and find themselves consistently losing arguments [and then] switch to lazy shortcuts, such as playing the part of an authority [...]
Sure that is a way out that sometimes has to be taken—because sometimes you are tired and the smaller children need to sleep because they don’t understand that they have to go to kindergarten the next day early...
And I have lots arguments with my older children and not played the authority card. I accepted that I erred.
One problem with arguments with children can be that they want to win and use all the rhetoric tricks they have at their disposal. They didn’t read EYs posts on the dangers of rhetoric and fully general counter arguments. An argument with a child isn’t neccessarily a harmonious thing. At least not when a significant issue is on the line.
You will not resolve such an issue with patience. I try often enough. And I can ‘win’ by patience. Once I lost an hour of range and no agreement in the middle of the day while three other children were unattended.
Just consider though—if this were an adult, you’d have to do it the hard way.
The hard way with an adult would often enough mean to go different ways. That is an option that is closed for parents. Both by their affection toward their children as well as by our society.
these are just my interactions with parents, interactions with children
Interacting with other persons children is quite different from with your own. And exactly beause they are not yours. You can send them back to their parents and they can go back their parents and in such a situation they basically behave like autonomous persons (if they feel safe but aduls also have to feel safe).
Wanting the child to do something is one reason. Concrete needs another. You wouldn’t disagree that I’d need to call back a small child from a high traffic street or a cliff or a dangerous animal or a poisonous thing. These are immediate and obvious.
But there are still parents who handle those occasions just fine without resorting to punishments and rewards.
My parents never seriously resorted to modeling my behavior though behavorism.
It may be that you lack a relationship with your kids where that’s possible. Especially if you already have rules that get enforced through punishments and rewards the kid will rightly assume that a new rule that isn’t enforced that way isn’t serious and the don’t have to follow.
I think it’s very hard to talk about something like parenting because different parents have success with different strategies and most think that their own experience should be guiding for all. It’s like politics in it’s mind killing potential.
It’s important to recognize that not all children respond to the same incentives.
I have a parentally anti-authortarian master game theorist for a six year old whose “natural consequences” are often disastrous. It takes a lot of finesse to manipulate him. A combination of honest, fun engagement and honest, threatened punishments. That’s not a necessary or desirable response to other children though.
That sounds familiar. I have four of these but at least it is not that disastrous mostly. Threatened punishments don’t really work. I can’t use them. I’m not behind them and if I must it dosn’t go well. My wife does sometimes and it works—but not for long. Finesse with incentives and patience work best. But these require resources that are not always avilable.
A long comment and one that seems to draw conclusions that are not really supported by my too short post (I really shouldn’t have posted in Comments). But the comment poses a few point’s I’d like to address.
Wanting the child to do something is one reason. Concrete needs another. You wouldn’t disagree that I’d need to call back a small child from a high traffic street or a cliff or a dangerous animal or a poisonous thing. These are immediate and obvious.
How much time to take with a child that want’s to pick up stones when you are on the way to kindergarten or the job is a moderate need you have to balance your own desires with the childs. Maintaining a household with six persons can mean one does everything or all share a part of the work. And there are lots of differnt ways to achieve some balance of needs in this. But whatever the balance is—it involves certain feedback. Talking alone will not do it—although it is necccessary to establish a context.
I can’t use that. First of all it would be a lie. I wouldn’t be sad or disappointed. At worst I would ask me what I did wrong in the first place. Second I can’t bear applying emotional pressure. Third I have seen it used on my children and it didn’t work.
Sure that is a way out that sometimes has to be taken—because sometimes you are tired and the smaller children need to sleep because they don’t understand that they have to go to kindergarten the next day early...
And I have lots arguments with my older children and not played the authority card. I accepted that I erred.
One problem with arguments with children can be that they want to win and use all the rhetoric tricks they have at their disposal. They didn’t read EYs posts on the dangers of rhetoric and fully general counter arguments. An argument with a child isn’t neccessarily a harmonious thing. At least not when a significant issue is on the line. You will not resolve such an issue with patience. I try often enough. And I can ‘win’ by patience. Once I lost an hour of range and no agreement in the middle of the day while three other children were unattended.
The hard way with an adult would often enough mean to go different ways. That is an option that is closed for parents. Both by their affection toward their children as well as by our society.
Interacting with other persons children is quite different from with your own. And exactly beause they are not yours. You can send them back to their parents and they can go back their parents and in such a situation they basically behave like autonomous persons (if they feel safe but aduls also have to feel safe).
But there are still parents who handle those occasions just fine without resorting to punishments and rewards. My parents never seriously resorted to modeling my behavior though behavorism.
It may be that you lack a relationship with your kids where that’s possible. Especially if you already have rules that get enforced through punishments and rewards the kid will rightly assume that a new rule that isn’t enforced that way isn’t serious and the don’t have to follow.
I think it’s very hard to talk about something like parenting because different parents have success with different strategies and most think that their own experience should be guiding for all. It’s like politics in it’s mind killing potential.
It’s important to recognize that not all children respond to the same incentives.
I have a parentally anti-authortarian master game theorist for a six year old whose “natural consequences” are often disastrous. It takes a lot of finesse to manipulate him. A combination of honest, fun engagement and honest, threatened punishments. That’s not a necessary or desirable response to other children though.
That sounds familiar. I have four of these but at least it is not that disastrous mostly. Threatened punishments don’t really work. I can’t use them. I’m not behind them and if I must it dosn’t go well. My wife does sometimes and it works—but not for long. Finesse with incentives and patience work best. But these require resources that are not always avilable.