Um, isn’t it kind of rhetorical to compare rhetoric to force and murder?
Also, all your articles here that I recall—likewise those of Eliezer on Overcoming Bias—are masterful applications of rhetoric. So I’m kind of confused here. Is this one of those “do as I say, not as I do” things?
If you mean the articles here are clear or well argued, thank you. I have no objection to clarity or good argument; see the first paragraph of the comment above. If you mean that I’m using dirty tricks like the “terrorists win” example, then I’d like to know exactly what you mean so I can avoid doing it in the future.
When I compare rhetoric (meaning “empty rhetoric”, as mentioned) to force and murder, I’m not saying they’re equally bad, or doing one leads to the other or anything like that. Just that they’re bad for the same reason. Both are potentially “useful” techniques. But both prevent rational argument and if used too frequently lead to a world in which rational argument is impossible.
But that is precisely the sort of “dirty trick” you claim to be against. By using murder as an example, you’re setting off a “boo light” (opposite of applause light) and linking it to the thing you want people to dislike. That’s rhetoric, and emotional manipulation.
And it’s neither a good thing nor a bad thing, in itself. Used to strengthen a valid argument, it’s fine. Arguing that it’s bad in and of itself is a misunderstanding… and another “boo light” (e.g. “empty rhetoric”, “dirty tricks”).
Emotional manipulation is unavoidable, by the way. Boring presenters and neutral presentations are just manipulating people’s emotions either towards boredom and not caring, or to “respect”, “status”, and “seriousness”, depending on the audience. It’s best to deliberately choose what emotions you want to create, in whom, rather than leaving the matter to chance.
If you mean the articles here are clear or well argued, thank you. I have no objection to clarity or good argument; see the first paragraph of the comment above. If you mean that I’m using dirty tricks like the “terrorists win” example, then I’d like to know exactly what you mean so I can avoid doing it in the future.
I think the point is that you do a little of both; loosely speaking you are guilty of being fairly eloquent—presenting your ideas persuasively and engagingly, in a style that is inherently likely to increase acceptance.
It is an unavoidable facet of human communication that the same idea can be more or less persuasive depending on how it is presented. Over on OB, Robin uses a far more neutral (or at times even anti-persuasive) style, and if memory serves me he and Eliezer have argued a bit about such use of style.
Um, isn’t it kind of rhetorical to compare rhetoric to force and murder?
Also, all your articles here that I recall—likewise those of Eliezer on Overcoming Bias—are masterful applications of rhetoric. So I’m kind of confused here. Is this one of those “do as I say, not as I do” things?
If you mean the articles here are clear or well argued, thank you. I have no objection to clarity or good argument; see the first paragraph of the comment above. If you mean that I’m using dirty tricks like the “terrorists win” example, then I’d like to know exactly what you mean so I can avoid doing it in the future.
When I compare rhetoric (meaning “empty rhetoric”, as mentioned) to force and murder, I’m not saying they’re equally bad, or doing one leads to the other or anything like that. Just that they’re bad for the same reason. Both are potentially “useful” techniques. But both prevent rational argument and if used too frequently lead to a world in which rational argument is impossible.
But that is precisely the sort of “dirty trick” you claim to be against. By using murder as an example, you’re setting off a “boo light” (opposite of applause light) and linking it to the thing you want people to dislike. That’s rhetoric, and emotional manipulation.
And it’s neither a good thing nor a bad thing, in itself. Used to strengthen a valid argument, it’s fine. Arguing that it’s bad in and of itself is a misunderstanding… and another “boo light” (e.g. “empty rhetoric”, “dirty tricks”).
Emotional manipulation is unavoidable, by the way. Boring presenters and neutral presentations are just manipulating people’s emotions either towards boredom and not caring, or to “respect”, “status”, and “seriousness”, depending on the audience. It’s best to deliberately choose what emotions you want to create, in whom, rather than leaving the matter to chance.
I think the point is that you do a little of both; loosely speaking you are guilty of being fairly eloquent—presenting your ideas persuasively and engagingly, in a style that is inherently likely to increase acceptance.
It is an unavoidable facet of human communication that the same idea can be more or less persuasive depending on how it is presented. Over on OB, Robin uses a far more neutral (or at times even anti-persuasive) style, and if memory serves me he and Eliezer have argued a bit about such use of style.