My comment about fake explanations applies to any reasonable definition of “explanation.”
No it doesn’t. It only applies to reasonable definitions of the particular homonym you’re referring to from within the group of two different words that are spelled E-X-P-L-A-N-A-T-I-O-N.
Suppose I said a particular hockey goal was a “fluke” (a stroke of luck). Then, you pointed me to a post that implied that hockey goals are not good examples of flukes (the fish). This would be a confusion caused by the fact that word “fluke” (a stroke of luck) has the same spelling and pronunciation as the word “fluke” (a type of flatfish).
In the same way, “explanation” has two meanings. The first meaning has to do with a reason, what Wikipedia calls “a set of statements constructed to describe a set of facts which clarifies the causes, context, and consequences of those facts.” The second meaning has to do with a description: an illustration, exposition, or demonstration of some idea.
“Explanation” in Eliezer’s post ‘Fake Explanation’ has the first meaning, about reason and cause.
“Explanation” in my post ‘Great Explanations’ has the second meaning, about illustration, exposition, or demonstration.
Suppose I said a particular hockey goal was a “fluke” (a stroke of luck). Then, you pointed me to a post that implied that hockey goals are not good examples of flukes (the fish). This would be a confusion caused by the fact that word “fluke” (a stroke of luck) has the same spelling and pronunciation as the word “fluke” (a type of flatfish).
Suppose you said “That bird is a fine example of a robin!” and I insisted it can’t be, because American robins have a red breast. Then you clarified that you were thinking of European robins, a very different bird that happens to be called the same thing. I would point out that my reasoning works just as well in that case, as European robins also have a red breast.
This seems more like what Vladimir was doing than your fluke example. And note you didn’t answer this question (though you thought you did):
how many readers of these books would realize that something’s wrong?
I agree that some of Vladimir’s comments can apply to both meanings of “explanation,” I was just trying to avoid conflating the two. I also think that most readers of pop-sci books generally wouldn’t be able to tell if something’s wrong, because most readers don’t check multiple sources and use Google Scholar to find the papers being cited.
What I’m disagreeing with is Vladimir’s original claim that “it’s impossible to gain any real understanding of physics from such materials.”
Almost all of the Sequences consist mostly of helpful explanations of concepts without going into full mathematical detail. I gave additional examples of non-mathematical explanations that improved my understanding in ways that informed my actions here, and wedrifid gave his own examples here. I gave one more here.
Because these all seem to be instances of improving someone’s understanding of some idea in a useful way without them acquiring full mathematical understanding of that idea, I wondered if perhaps Vladimir was using an unusual definition of “understanding” such that for him “understanding” or “real understanding” only referred to detailed mathematical understanding. But in that case his original claim that “it’s impossible to gain any real understanding of physics from [materials that don’t impart a detailed mathematical understanding]” is basically tautological, and doesn’t undermine the rationale for the original post (‘Great Explanations’).
Vladimir also seemed to claim that I can’t have evidence about whether Copenhagen is correct or incorrect without understanding all the equations involved. But that seems obviously false, so I asked if I had misunderstood him.
Suppose I said a particular hockey goal was a “fluke” (a stroke of luck). Then, you pointed me to a post that implied that hockey goals are not good examples of flukes (the fish). This would be a confusion caused by the fact that word “fluke” (a stroke of luck) has the same spelling and pronunciation as the word “fluke” (a type of flatfish).
I cannot find it online, but there is an essay called “Rural literalisms” or something to that effect written by a guy who moves to the countryside and is constantly being thrown by the way his neighbors use expressions literally. Among others occasions, he’s very proud of himself when he catches his first fish, only to be told by his neighbor, “It’s just a fluke.” These aren’t homonyms; it’s one word being used metaphorically in other situations.
“Explanation” in Eliezer’s post ‘Fake Explanation’ has the first meaning, about reason and cause.
Fake explanation is also an incorrect description, so both senses you listed qualify. Explanation of a reason for something is also a description of that reason.
“Explanation” in my post ‘Great Explanations’ has the second meaning, about illustration, exposition, or demonstration.
It still seems mostly impossible to give adequate explanations in this sense. For highly technical topics, a fair share of difficulty is in understanding what the concepts are, so you won’t be able to see what the relevant facts mean without already going a long way towards knowing why they hold.
I’m curious about why this was downvoted. Is there something in this comment that is incorrect? Do people disagree with my statement that ‘explanation’ has two meanings, or something?
My best guess: the comment seemed generally rude and “talking-down”.
While I can see the motivation for typing “E-X-P-L-A-N-A-T-I-O-N”, it seems to me like it would seem to people as somehow mocking, especially on a cursory read.
I didn’t downvote that comment, but might have, if I followed the conversation live. My thinking when I read it was: “He can’t possibly really think that it is a homonym! So, for the sake of the argument he arrogantly (because that all caps spelling does show off some arrogancy) distorts reality and expects us to accept it?!”
But, now I see that this is too much of a correspondence bias. You probably just wanted to show that “explanation” has two different meanings, but in the head of the discussion just found a very bad example for your argument. Because “explanation” does have two slightly different meanings and this is relevant here. But let’s be clear, these two meanings are close and in no way homonyms (as opposed to what you stated and what you clearly tried to present with the “fluke” example).
So, I think this comment of yours is bad and the downvotings were valid.
Edit: I didn’t read the wikipedia article you linked when I wrote the above. I only ever heard/saw “homonym” being used in the sense of “two identically spelled and pronounced words with different meanings and of unrelated origin”; what Wikipedia calls “true homonym”. In the more general sense the two “explanations” might qualify as homonyms (I am definitely not a linguist). But, your “fluke” example strongly indicated the more narrow (and, I think, more common) meaning. So, my reasons still stand.
No it doesn’t. It only applies to reasonable definitions of the particular homonym you’re referring to from within the group of two different words that are spelled E-X-P-L-A-N-A-T-I-O-N.
Suppose I said a particular hockey goal was a “fluke” (a stroke of luck). Then, you pointed me to a post that implied that hockey goals are not good examples of flukes (the fish). This would be a confusion caused by the fact that word “fluke” (a stroke of luck) has the same spelling and pronunciation as the word “fluke” (a type of flatfish).
In the same way, “explanation” has two meanings. The first meaning has to do with a reason, what Wikipedia calls “a set of statements constructed to describe a set of facts which clarifies the causes, context, and consequences of those facts.” The second meaning has to do with a description: an illustration, exposition, or demonstration of some idea.
“Explanation” in Eliezer’s post ‘Fake Explanation’ has the first meaning, about reason and cause.
“Explanation” in my post ‘Great Explanations’ has the second meaning, about illustration, exposition, or demonstration.
Suppose you said “That bird is a fine example of a robin!” and I insisted it can’t be, because American robins have a red breast. Then you clarified that you were thinking of European robins, a very different bird that happens to be called the same thing. I would point out that my reasoning works just as well in that case, as European robins also have a red breast.
This seems more like what Vladimir was doing than your fluke example. And note you didn’t answer this question (though you thought you did):
I agree that some of Vladimir’s comments can apply to both meanings of “explanation,” I was just trying to avoid conflating the two. I also think that most readers of pop-sci books generally wouldn’t be able to tell if something’s wrong, because most readers don’t check multiple sources and use Google Scholar to find the papers being cited.
What I’m disagreeing with is Vladimir’s original claim that “it’s impossible to gain any real understanding of physics from such materials.”
Almost all of the Sequences consist mostly of helpful explanations of concepts without going into full mathematical detail. I gave additional examples of non-mathematical explanations that improved my understanding in ways that informed my actions here, and wedrifid gave his own examples here. I gave one more here.
Because these all seem to be instances of improving someone’s understanding of some idea in a useful way without them acquiring full mathematical understanding of that idea, I wondered if perhaps Vladimir was using an unusual definition of “understanding” such that for him “understanding” or “real understanding” only referred to detailed mathematical understanding. But in that case his original claim that “it’s impossible to gain any real understanding of physics from [materials that don’t impart a detailed mathematical understanding]” is basically tautological, and doesn’t undermine the rationale for the original post (‘Great Explanations’).
Vladimir also seemed to claim that I can’t have evidence about whether Copenhagen is correct or incorrect without understanding all the equations involved. But that seems obviously false, so I asked if I had misunderstood him.
I cannot find it online, but there is an essay called “Rural literalisms” or something to that effect written by a guy who moves to the countryside and is constantly being thrown by the way his neighbors use expressions literally. Among others occasions, he’s very proud of himself when he catches his first fish, only to be told by his neighbor, “It’s just a fluke.” These aren’t homonyms; it’s one word being used metaphorically in other situations.
Fake explanation is also an incorrect description, so both senses you listed qualify. Explanation of a reason for something is also a description of that reason.
It still seems mostly impossible to give adequate explanations in this sense. For highly technical topics, a fair share of difficulty is in understanding what the concepts are, so you won’t be able to see what the relevant facts mean without already going a long way towards knowing why they hold.
I’m curious about why this was downvoted. Is there something in this comment that is incorrect? Do people disagree with my statement that ‘explanation’ has two meanings, or something?
My best guess: the comment seemed generally rude and “talking-down”.
While I can see the motivation for typing “E-X-P-L-A-N-A-T-I-O-N”, it seems to me like it would seem to people as somehow mocking, especially on a cursory read.
I didn’t downvote that comment, but might have, if I followed the conversation live. My thinking when I read it was: “He can’t possibly really think that it is a homonym! So, for the sake of the argument he arrogantly (because that all caps spelling does show off some arrogancy) distorts reality and expects us to accept it?!”
But, now I see that this is too much of a correspondence bias. You probably just wanted to show that “explanation” has two different meanings, but in the head of the discussion just found a very bad example for your argument. Because “explanation” does have two slightly different meanings and this is relevant here. But let’s be clear, these two meanings are close and in no way homonyms (as opposed to what you stated and what you clearly tried to present with the “fluke” example).
So, I think this comment of yours is bad and the downvotings were valid.
Edit: I didn’t read the wikipedia article you linked when I wrote the above. I only ever heard/saw “homonym” being used in the sense of “two identically spelled and pronounced words with different meanings and of unrelated origin”; what Wikipedia calls “true homonym”. In the more general sense the two “explanations” might qualify as homonyms (I am definitely not a linguist). But, your “fluke” example strongly indicated the more narrow (and, I think, more common) meaning. So, my reasons still stand.