redistribution of wealth and other oppression-proofing liberal policies
You’re a healthy, wealthy, educated person. Being educated, you know you shouldn’t have more than, say 2 children, to be able to afford their education and ensure their good standard of living. You’ll have first child at age 25+.
I’m poor and uneducated third-world citizen. Being uneducated I don’t know how many children I can afford. Or I just don’t care, don’t think about it. I’ll have my first child at age of 18.
Now you give me half of your wealth and now you can only afford one child.
25 years from now you and your one educated child have to support me, 8 of my uneducated children… and 40 of my uneducated grandchildren. Your child can’t afford having children at all.
This is what redistribution does, exaggerated. You’re assuming the person you’ll give wealth to will use it in a sane way from your point of view. They won’t. You don’t want to admit the possibility that it may be long term better to let them die to stop this. Of course this is not ideal, not even good. Ideally you’d teach them, but will they listen?
You’re assuming the person you’ll give wealth to will use it in a sane way from your point of view.
Redistribution doesn’t have to mean giving money. It can mean giving food, education, health care..it’s not as if on-one has thought about this issue before.
Of course I won’t argue against effective altruism or charity and I suppose charity is technically a kind of “wealth redistribution”. However, it’s different than taxes in one very important way: it’s redistributing excess wealth after my own goals have been achieved, not before.
I just used charity as an example; the same argument applies to taxes as well. The only difference is that taxes are enforced. It’s still a priority to ensure that taxes are given and used correctly. In many countries with welfare, for instance, to stay on welfare you are required to prove that you have been looking for a source of independent income. Now, scandals do happen, and they happen often, and I agree with you that it’s an important priority to make sure that welfare is only used in a positive way. I would even support a limit on having children unless someone can prove they have the financial means to take care of them. This seems both humane and efficient.
I just used charity as an example; the same argument applies to taxes as well.
That does not follow. Why would I care about money I have no control over? Why would a politician care about efficiency over publicity? Why wouldn’t the recipient try to take more than he needs? There’s no incentive for anyone to do anything right.
How do prove your assets, when money in the bank is no longer money in the bank? And what you do with violators? Fine them? Sterilise them? Seize their children?
You’re a healthy, wealthy, educated person. [...] I’m poor and uneducated third-world citizen. [..] Now you give me half of your wealth and now you can only afford one child. [..] 25 years from now you and your one educated child have to support me, 8 of my uneducated children… and 40 of my uneducated grandchildren. Your child can’t afford having children at all.
In this account, how did I get so much more healthy, wealthy, and educated than you are? Is there any way to do whatever that was to you, as well, or is it better to just let you die (or kill you)? Would it have similarly been better to let me die (or kill me) before doing whatever it was that made me so much more healthy, wealthy, and educated? How can we tell?
I can’t shake off the impression that you’re implicitly assuming the thesis. I’ll try to answer what I can.
In this account, how did I get so much more healthy, wealthy, and educated than you are?
Why the implicit assumption that redistribution has a net positive impact here? Another implicit assumption here is that we’re all born equal. Genetics aside, don’t the children inherit the mindset of their close ones to a large degree? Aren’t societies semi-stable, self-reinforcing, whatever their current wellbeing is? Africa is still poor, despite years of foreign aid. Middle east is still fighting, despite years of foreign interventions… What you need to do is to create incentives to break out of the current state of things and survival instinct is an excellent incentive which can be applied to poor people. What redistribution does is removing this powerful incentive and creating opposite ones. Basically, you’re rewarding people for making poor economic decisions.
Is there any way to do whatever that was to you, as well
Assuming it was redistribution that made you wealthy and educated, does it work reliably on the majority of poor people? Without forcing them somehow out of their current environment? That’s along the same lines of thought as that giving someone a million dollars reliably makes them a millionaire.
Would it have similarly been better to let me die (or kill me) before doing whatever it was that made me so much more healthy, wealthy, and educated?
This argument only makes sense if you already believe that redistribution reliably works, or anything reliably works, for that matter. People are notoriously difficult to change.
nother implicit assumption here is that we’re all born equal.
If your relative wealth is a result of genetics, not effort, do you still have an absolute moral claim on it?
Aren’t societies semi-stable, self-reinforcing, whatever their current wellbeing is?
Well, I’m not an illtetrate farm labourer like my ancestors.
Assuming it was redistribution that made you wealthy and educated, does it work reliably on the majority of poor people?
Why would it have to? You can argue that people have a right to the opportunity of an education, irrespective of outcomes, and you can argue that educating people up to their potential has a nett positive effect. Neither argument requires education to lead to positive outcomes in every individual case.
This argument only makes sense if you already believe that redistribution reliably works,
Western societies introduced universal free education over a century ago, and are now much richer.
The question I asked was, in your scenario, what creates/maintains/justifies the disparity between us.
Your answer seems to be that (genetics aside), in your scenario the root cause is innate advantages due to differences in early environment, which are themselves the result of self-reinforcing patterns in our societies, which causes me to make better decisions than you do.
Is that right? (It’s hard to tell, because you don’t answer my question so much as you treat it as an unarticulated assertion with which you argue.)
Yes, that’s correct. I’m arguing that redistribution in any form of giving “stuff” for free makes it worse by providing strong incentives to maintain status quo.
I’m arguing that redistribution in any form of giving “stuff” for free makes it worse
On your account does redistribution in the form of, for example, using my “stuff” to educate others in how to make better decisions necessarily make it worse?
On your account does redistribution in the form of, for example, using my “stuff” to educate others in how to make better decisions necessarily make it worse?
You’re a healthy, wealthy, educated person. Being educated, you know you shouldn’t have more than, say 2 children, to be able to afford their education and ensure their good standard of living. You’ll have first child at age 25+.
I’m poor and uneducated third-world citizen. Being uneducated I don’t know how many children I can afford. Or I just don’t care, don’t think about it. I’ll have my first child at age of 18.
Now you give me half of your wealth and now you can only afford one child.
25 years from now you and your one educated child have to support me, 8 of my uneducated children… and 40 of my uneducated grandchildren. Your child can’t afford having children at all.
This is what redistribution does, exaggerated. You’re assuming the person you’ll give wealth to will use it in a sane way from your point of view. They won’t. You don’t want to admit the possibility that it may be long term better to let them die to stop this. Of course this is not ideal, not even good. Ideally you’d teach them, but will they listen?
Redistribution doesn’t have to mean giving money. It can mean giving food, education, health care..it’s not as if on-one has thought about this issue before.
Effective charity is ensuring that the money will be used in a sane way. Hence all the discussion on this site about effective altruism.
Of course I won’t argue against effective altruism or charity and I suppose charity is technically a kind of “wealth redistribution”. However, it’s different than taxes in one very important way: it’s redistributing excess wealth after my own goals have been achieved, not before.
I just used charity as an example; the same argument applies to taxes as well. The only difference is that taxes are enforced. It’s still a priority to ensure that taxes are given and used correctly. In many countries with welfare, for instance, to stay on welfare you are required to prove that you have been looking for a source of independent income. Now, scandals do happen, and they happen often, and I agree with you that it’s an important priority to make sure that welfare is only used in a positive way. I would even support a limit on having children unless someone can prove they have the financial means to take care of them. This seems both humane and efficient.
That does not follow. Why would I care about money I have no control over? Why would a politician care about efficiency over publicity? Why wouldn’t the recipient try to take more than he needs? There’s no incentive for anyone to do anything right.
How do prove your assets, when money in the bank is no longer money in the bank? And what you do with violators? Fine them? Sterilise them? Seize their children?
It would seem to me that discouraging people from hiding their money away would be a good thing?
Is that still a clinching argument if redistribution can be justified consequentialistically?
In this account, how did I get so much more healthy, wealthy, and educated than you are? Is there any way to do whatever that was to you, as well, or is it better to just let you die (or kill you)? Would it have similarly been better to let me die (or kill me) before doing whatever it was that made me so much more healthy, wealthy, and educated? How can we tell?
I can’t shake off the impression that you’re implicitly assuming the thesis. I’ll try to answer what I can.
Why the implicit assumption that redistribution has a net positive impact here? Another implicit assumption here is that we’re all born equal. Genetics aside, don’t the children inherit the mindset of their close ones to a large degree? Aren’t societies semi-stable, self-reinforcing, whatever their current wellbeing is? Africa is still poor, despite years of foreign aid. Middle east is still fighting, despite years of foreign interventions… What you need to do is to create incentives to break out of the current state of things and survival instinct is an excellent incentive which can be applied to poor people. What redistribution does is removing this powerful incentive and creating opposite ones. Basically, you’re rewarding people for making poor economic decisions.
Assuming it was redistribution that made you wealthy and educated, does it work reliably on the majority of poor people? Without forcing them somehow out of their current environment? That’s along the same lines of thought as that giving someone a million dollars reliably makes them a millionaire.
This argument only makes sense if you already believe that redistribution reliably works, or anything reliably works, for that matter. People are notoriously difficult to change.
If your relative wealth is a result of genetics, not effort, do you still have an absolute moral claim on it?
Well, I’m not an illtetrate farm labourer like my ancestors.
Why would it have to? You can argue that people have a right to the opportunity of an education, irrespective of outcomes, and you can argue that educating people up to their potential has a nett positive effect. Neither argument requires education to lead to positive outcomes in every individual case.
Western societies introduced universal free education over a century ago, and are now much richer.
The question I asked was, in your scenario, what creates/maintains/justifies the disparity between us.
Your answer seems to be that (genetics aside), in your scenario the root cause is innate advantages due to differences in early environment, which are themselves the result of self-reinforcing patterns in our societies, which causes me to make better decisions than you do.
Is that right? (It’s hard to tell, because you don’t answer my question so much as you treat it as an unarticulated assertion with which you argue.)
Yes, that’s correct. I’m arguing that redistribution in any form of giving “stuff” for free makes it worse by providing strong incentives to maintain status quo.
Have you read Yvain’s non-libertarian FAQ?
Thanks for being clear about that.
On your account does redistribution in the form of, for example, using my “stuff” to educate others in how to make better decisions necessarily make it worse?
Good question.