The first quote talks of “changing” reality, the second talks of “creating” it , making the first seem like an encouragement to try and change reality, and the second like sollipsism (specifically, “creating our own reality”).
The second also seems very dismissive of the need to think before you act, the first much less so (if at all).
The second quote is clearly not solipsism; note that what is “created” will be solid enough to be judiciously studied by other actors, empiricism, etc. Note also that the second quote does not talk about creating “reality,” it talks about creating “our own reality.” In other words, remoulding the world to suit your own purposes. Any sensible reading of the quote leads to that interpretation.
Like Lumifer, the Singer/Feuerbach quote, made me think immediately of the famous “reality-based community” quote.
No, the second clearly implies that the speaker simply doesn’t hold with Enlightenment principles, empiricism, and all that “judicious study of discernible reality” crap. That speaker clearly prefers to just act, not out of rational calculation towards a goal, but because acting is manly and awesome. This is why people have such vicious contempt for that speaker: not only is he not acting rationally on behalf of others, he doesn’t even care about acting rationally on his own behalf, and he had the big guns.
This is why people have such vicious contempt for that speaker
Actually, no, I think that some people have such vicious contempt for that speaker because he is a prominent member of the enemy political tribe and so needs to have shit thrown at him given the slightest opportunity.
What other option is there? Preferring to act out of rational calculation towards a goal would put the speaker among those who “believe that solutions emerge from judicious study of discernible reality”, i.e. the very people he’s arguing against. We are left to guess what alternative decision procedure the speaker is proposing. eli_sennesh’s interpretation is one possibility, do you have another?
I read him as saying his empire was so powerful he didn’t need to care about existing reality or to plan ahead; he could make it up as he went and still expected to succeed no matter what, so he didn’t need to judiciously study the existing reality before overwriting it.
We are left to guess what alternative decision procedure the speaker is proposing. eli_sennesh’s interpretation is one possibility, do you have another?
I read him as saying that the people he is talking to and about are out of the loop. They write about what the politicians are doing, but only after the fact. The politicians have their own sources of information and people to analyse them, and the public-facing writers have no role in that process.
in other words, remoulding the world to suit your own purposes
Denotationally, that seems like a reasonable interpretation. It sets off solipsism warnings in my head, possibly because I know some self-described sollipsists who really are fond of using that kind of phrasing.
However, the speaker could have chosen to say this in a more straightforward way, as you do. Something like “We are an empire now, we have the power to remould parts of the world to better suit our purposes”. And yet, he did not. Why not? This is not a rhetorical question, I’m open to other possible answers, but here’s what I think:
I don’t think it is very controversial that this quote is arguing against “the reality-based community”.
It is trying to give the impression that “acting … to create our own reality” is somehow contradictory to “solutions emerging from your judicious study of discernible reality”. In reality of course, most or all effective attempts at steering reality towards a desired goal are based on “judicious study of discernible reality”. He is trying to give the impression that he (“we, an empire”) can effectively act without consulting, or at least using the methods of, the “reality-based community”. He doesn’t say that denotationally, because it’s false.
I think you are underestimating the importance of being well-informed for being an “agenty mover and shaker”. Look at this guy and these guys for example. Were they “agenty movers and shakers” ? They certainly tried!
The first quote talks of “changing” reality, the second talks of “creating” it, making the first seem like an encouragement to try and change reality, and the second like sollipsism.
I think this is exactly the same thing. When you change existing reality you create new reality.
The second also seems very dismissive of the need to think before you act
I read it more as pointing out that what many accept as immutable is actually mutable and changeable. This also plays into the agent vs NPC distinction (see e.g. here).
These quotes don’t seem similar to me at all.
The first quote talks of “changing” reality, the second talks of “creating” it , making the first seem like an encouragement to try and change reality, and the second like sollipsism (specifically, “creating our own reality”).
The second also seems very dismissive of the need to think before you act, the first much less so (if at all).
The second quote is clearly not solipsism; note that what is “created” will be solid enough to be judiciously studied by other actors, empiricism, etc. Note also that the second quote does not talk about creating “reality,” it talks about creating “our own reality.” In other words, remoulding the world to suit your own purposes. Any sensible reading of the quote leads to that interpretation.
Like Lumifer, the Singer/Feuerbach quote, made me think immediately of the famous “reality-based community” quote.
No, the second clearly implies that the speaker simply doesn’t hold with Enlightenment principles, empiricism, and all that “judicious study of discernible reality” crap. That speaker clearly prefers to just act, not out of rational calculation towards a goal, but because acting is manly and awesome. This is why people have such vicious contempt for that speaker: not only is he not acting rationally on behalf of others, he doesn’t even care about acting rationally on his own behalf, and he had the big guns.
Actually, no, I think that some people have such vicious contempt for that speaker because he is a prominent member of the enemy political tribe and so needs to have shit thrown at him given the slightest opportunity.
I cannot read this anywhere in the text,not even between the lines.
What other option is there? Preferring to act out of rational calculation towards a goal would put the speaker among those who “believe that solutions emerge from judicious study of discernible reality”, i.e. the very people he’s arguing against. We are left to guess what alternative decision procedure the speaker is proposing. eli_sennesh’s interpretation is one possibility, do you have another?
I read him as saying his empire was so powerful he didn’t need to care about existing reality or to plan ahead; he could make it up as he went and still expected to succeed no matter what, so he didn’t need to judiciously study the existing reality before overwriting it.
I read him as saying that the people he is talking to and about are out of the loop. They write about what the politicians are doing, but only after the fact. The politicians have their own sources of information and people to analyse them, and the public-facing writers have no role in that process.
Denotationally, that seems like a reasonable interpretation. It sets off solipsism warnings in my head, possibly because I know some self-described sollipsists who really are fond of using that kind of phrasing.
However, the speaker could have chosen to say this in a more straightforward way, as you do. Something like “We are an empire now, we have the power to remould parts of the world to better suit our purposes”. And yet, he did not. Why not? This is not a rhetorical question, I’m open to other possible answers, but here’s what I think:
I don’t think it is very controversial that this quote is arguing against “the reality-based community”. It is trying to give the impression that “acting … to create our own reality” is somehow contradictory to “solutions emerging from your judicious study of discernible reality”. In reality of course, most or all effective attempts at steering reality towards a desired goal are based on “judicious study of discernible reality”. He is trying to give the impression that he (“we, an empire”) can effectively act without consulting, or at least using the methods of, the “reality-based community”. He doesn’t say that denotationally, because it’s false.
Seems to me you’re overthinking the simple difference between being a passive observer and being an agenty mover and shaker.
Or in an old Arab saying, the dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
I think you are underestimating the importance of being well-informed for being an “agenty mover and shaker”. Look at this guy and these guys for example. Were they “agenty movers and shakers” ? They certainly tried!
Even the famous Sun Tzu, hardly a passive observer himself, devotes an entire chapter to the importance of being well-informed.
I think this is exactly the same thing. When you change existing reality you create new reality.
I read it more as pointing out that what many accept as immutable is actually mutable and changeable. This also plays into the agent vs NPC distinction (see e.g. here).