The tests in question were designed to make autistics fail and defined as tests of theory of mind. Anyone even vaguely familiar with this will be very annoyed and likely to say things like “this test is crap” because it’s worthless at what it was ostensibly designed for.
Let me explain that again so you definitely understand why this makes people angry:
Scientists wanted to be able to test autistics’ theory of mind.
Scientists designed a test autistics failed and neurotypicals passed.
Scientists called it a test of theory of mind.
Scientists defined theory of mind ability as passing this test.
Scientists claimed that autistics lack empathy.
Scientists also claimed that sociopaths lack empathy.
Some people got a little confused here, leading to some terrible misconceptions that have caused a LOT of harm.
Do you want links to show this really happened this way?
I have not heard this interpretation of the tests in question and I also did not have much prior knowledge of what exactly the tests hoped to prove and the subsequent conclusions, so I would greatly appreciate any links you could provide that may cause me to update my beliefs.
Specifically, I find both your explanation and the more mainstream explanation (something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally%E2%80%93Anne_test) plausible, so non-trivial evidence would lead me to put more certainty in a ‘position’.
so non-trivial evidence would lead me to put more certainty in a ‘position’.
Because this particular test is getting a lot of (possibly earned) flak right now, I think it would be useful for people to actually SEE this test in action. I don’t know if this is considered “trivial”, but to me watching these tests is decent evidence that it is testing Theory of Mind as much as, if not more than, language skills.
Here is a TED talk on the subject. The entire talk is on the subject, but the part with the experiments is at 3:55- 7:30 . This experiment goes on to show that event though Theory of Mind is understood at age 4, that it’s not until age 7 that it is used to decide moral judgements. (If the pirate ate the wrong sandwich because his got moved without his knowledge, is he being naughty/should he be punished?)
In this video the three year old is at the stage where she realizes that she USED to think that crayons were in the box, so she is starting to learn Theory of Mind. She still gets the second question wrong though. This is because this isn’t a concept that one day you don’t have, and all of a sudden you get it. Learning ToM is a process that takes time.
Finally, here is one that shows not understanding other’s point of view.
I don’t know the history of these tests, so I will concede the point that perhaps these tests are used on non-NT’s in a negative way, and that perhaps they were designed with some nefarious purpose of judging non-NTs.
However saying that because of this fact that these tests are “crap” is like saying that because people die in car accidents, that therefore cars are “crap”. I think the test can be BOTH useful in demonstrating Theory of Mind that occurs in children 4 and under AND that the test can (possibly) be used in a negative way with non-NTs.
Perhaps to pass the test you need BOTH Theory of Mind, AND language skills at a 4 year-old level.
Even if it is just language skills, it still stands to reason to me, that if a child can’t pass the test, that you won’t be able to explain cognitive biases to them with any great success. (I am sure you could teach them the “Teacher’s Passcode”.) That is the reason I posted the test, and I think whether or not I am completely wrong on WHAT it tests, that the test still stands as good evidence supporting the claim I was making (can’t teach them abstract material).
And I didn’t even have to use this test specifically. I just wanted to show any example of the fact that children’s minds don’t operate on a developed enough level to yet understand abstract ideas.
Anyone even vaguely familiar with this will be very annoyed and likely to say things like “this test is crap”
You are using this as if it should EXCUSE the extremely rude grandparent comment, when instead it is an EXPLANATION. The two are not the same. You can explain bad behavior, without considering it an excuse.
Example- “I am late because I overslept” is an explanation not an excuse. “I am late because my car got a flat” is an acceptable excuse.
Though I didn’t know the details, I already understood from the tone and the link, that the grandparent had some personal grudge/negative feelings towards the test in question. I assume it has been used on him/her to negative effect. I would guess, from your knowledge of this test, that it has also been used negatively on you or one of your loved ones. I am very sorry about this for the both of you. But that does not mean that it is an excuse to then leave rude and cryptic remarks, as the grandparent did.
The tests in question were designed to make autistics fail and defined as tests of theory of mind. Anyone even vaguely familiar with this will be very annoyed and likely to say things like “this test is crap” because it’s worthless at what it was ostensibly designed for.
Let me explain that again so you definitely understand why this makes people angry: Scientists wanted to be able to test autistics’ theory of mind. Scientists designed a test autistics failed and neurotypicals passed. Scientists called it a test of theory of mind. Scientists defined theory of mind ability as passing this test. Scientists claimed that autistics lack empathy. Scientists also claimed that sociopaths lack empathy. Some people got a little confused here, leading to some terrible misconceptions that have caused a LOT of harm.
Do you want links to show this really happened this way?
I have not heard this interpretation of the tests in question and I also did not have much prior knowledge of what exactly the tests hoped to prove and the subsequent conclusions, so I would greatly appreciate any links you could provide that may cause me to update my beliefs.
Specifically, I find both your explanation and the more mainstream explanation (something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally%E2%80%93Anne_test) plausible, so non-trivial evidence would lead me to put more certainty in a ‘position’.
Because this particular test is getting a lot of (possibly earned) flak right now, I think it would be useful for people to actually SEE this test in action. I don’t know if this is considered “trivial”, but to me watching these tests is decent evidence that it is testing Theory of Mind as much as, if not more than, language skills.
Here is a TED talk on the subject. The entire talk is on the subject, but the part with the experiments is at 3:55- 7:30 . This experiment goes on to show that event though Theory of Mind is understood at age 4, that it’s not until age 7 that it is used to decide moral judgements. (If the pirate ate the wrong sandwich because his got moved without his knowledge, is he being naughty/should he be punished?)
In this video the three year old is at the stage where she realizes that she USED to think that crayons were in the box, so she is starting to learn Theory of Mind. She still gets the second question wrong though. This is because this isn’t a concept that one day you don’t have, and all of a sudden you get it. Learning ToM is a process that takes time.
Finally, here is one that shows not understanding other’s point of view.
I don’t know the history of these tests, so I will concede the point that perhaps these tests are used on non-NT’s in a negative way, and that perhaps they were designed with some nefarious purpose of judging non-NTs.
However saying that because of this fact that these tests are “crap” is like saying that because people die in car accidents, that therefore cars are “crap”. I think the test can be BOTH useful in demonstrating Theory of Mind that occurs in children 4 and under AND that the test can (possibly) be used in a negative way with non-NTs.
Perhaps to pass the test you need BOTH Theory of Mind, AND language skills at a 4 year-old level.
Even if it is just language skills, it still stands to reason to me, that if a child can’t pass the test, that you won’t be able to explain cognitive biases to them with any great success. (I am sure you could teach them the “Teacher’s Passcode”.) That is the reason I posted the test, and I think whether or not I am completely wrong on WHAT it tests, that the test still stands as good evidence supporting the claim I was making (can’t teach them abstract material).
And I didn’t even have to use this test specifically. I just wanted to show any example of the fact that children’s minds don’t operate on a developed enough level to yet understand abstract ideas.
You are using this as if it should EXCUSE the extremely rude grandparent comment, when instead it is an EXPLANATION. The two are not the same. You can explain bad behavior, without considering it an excuse.
Example- “I am late because I overslept” is an explanation not an excuse. “I am late because my car got a flat” is an acceptable excuse.
Though I didn’t know the details, I already understood from the tone and the link, that the grandparent had some personal grudge/negative feelings towards the test in question. I assume it has been used on him/her to negative effect. I would guess, from your knowledge of this test, that it has also been used negatively on you or one of your loved ones. I am very sorry about this for the both of you. But that does not mean that it is an excuse to then leave rude and cryptic remarks, as the grandparent did.