Well, as long as we don’t teach children that homosexuals are evil, this seems acceptable to me. After all, we don’t teach children about BDSM (do we?) even though BDSM relationships could lead to children.
As for Jim’s views, well, blaming feminism does seem a lot more realistic than blaming gays, although his views are not without their own problems.
For the family unit to function, it has to have a single head, and that head has to be the man, because women will not endure sex if they are the head.
Women don’t enjoy sex?
I had a conversation with an Indian friend of mine a while ago, who was telling me about a friend of hers who was in a forced marriage. At the wedding the bride was in tears (of sadness), hugging her friends and refusing to let go. While I can see that highly intelligent women not having children can be a source of concern for anyone who does not believe that the singularity will ride in and save the day, I’d like to think there is a better third option that does not cause emotional damage. Not that reality conforms to what I want to believe...
After all, we don’t teach children about BDSM (do we?)
As far as I know not yet (outside of may be some of the most progressive schools). However, if progressivism continues on its current track within several decades sentiments like that will be considered “anti-BDSM hate speech”.
For the family unit to function, it has to have a single head, and that head has to be the man, because women will not endure sex if they are the head.
Women don’t enjoy sex?
Women don’t enjoy sex with men whose status is equal to or lower than theirs.
I had a conversation with an Indian friend of mine a while ago, who was telling me about a friend of hers who was in a forced marriage. At the wedding the bride was in tears (of sadness), hugging her friends and refusing to let go.
Do you know what her life and happiness level are like now? Would you guess she’s better or worse off than the women who freely chose to marry Henry?
A few ironically contradictory things just struck me about these topics:
1) If you want to be in a patriarchal relationship, then the most politically correct way to describe this is to say its a D/s kink thing. Helps if there’s actual spanking involved. Actually, I think it is accurate to say that among my peer goup, traditional relationships would be regarded as a kink.
2) Being pro-arranged marriages isn’t PC because feminism, but being anti-arranged marriages isn’t PC because you are being intolerant of Indian culture.
1) If you want to be in a patriarchal relationship, then the most politically correct way to describe this is to say its a D/s kink thing. Helps if there’s actual spanking involved.
There is in fact a significant overlap between “game” and BDSM, the latter not merely in the “kinky bedroom games” sense, but as an ideology about what constitutes natural and proper relations between men and women. For example, the well-known Roissy blogger takes his pseudonym from “The Story of O”, whose action (ho ho) largely takes place at a chateau near the French town of Roissy. Back when his blog was called “Roissy in D.C” (paralleling the full name of the real town, Roissy-en-France) the masthead picture was a still from the film of the book. And surely the least important aspect of John Norman’s notorious Gor novels is the overt BDSM activities.
1) Agree. I find that even monogamy gives me the creeps unless I think of it as kink.
2) Nitpick: unforced arranged marriages happen too. I would say that being anti those might be un-PC, but being anti-forced marriages is entirely PC. Admittedly the boundary between encouragement to marry the selected partner and being forced is not too sharp.
Women don’t enjoy sex with men whose status is equal to or lower than theirs.
Citation needed?
While I can’t speak from personal experience (I’m neither a woman, nor did I have plenty of sexual partners to compare with) this doesn’t strike me as true based on conversations I had about the subject.
Do you know what her life and happiness level are like now? Would you guess she’s better or worse off than the women who freely chose to marry Henry?
The fact that there are people who make stupid (grossly sub-optimal w.r.t. their own preferences) life decisions is a cost for a society which in general gives people substantial freedom to make their own decisions. The classical liberal position is that this kind of freedom benefits most people. It might harm a few of them, but this is considered an acceptable trade-off.
In a traditional, arranged marriage system, where marriage is negotiated between the parents of the prospective spouses, you have that in general the parents’ interests don’t perfectly track the interests of their children. Moreover, while stupid children might be protected from their stupidity by smarter parents, smart children might be harmed by stupid parents that pick bad matches for them.
Moreover, while stupid children might be protected from their stupidity by smarter parents, smart children might be harmed by stupid parents that pick bad matches for them.
Children’s intelligence correlates with their parents, while their parents have more life experience, so on average parental advice ought to be fairly good.
Ceteris paribus, yes, but arranged marriage systems generally entail little time for the parents to get to know the prospective spouse for their child (up to the extreme case of black-box marriage) and generally also make divorce difficult or impossible. Overall, I think that, even if the parents interests are perfectly lined to the interests of their child, the chances of landing a bad match and getting stuck with it are higher in an arranged marriage system than in a free-choice system.
South Asia, where arranged marriages are still commonplace, with its high rates of domestic violence (India, Pakistan) and honor killings, is a piece of evidence pointing in that direction.
Maybe there is a compromise, where children listen to their parent’s advice and take it seriously (as opposed to doing the opposite because they want to rebel) but in the end make their own decisions. And social norms could be pro-natalist without endorsing domestic violence.
However, if progressivism continues on its current track within several decades sentiments like that will be considered “anti-BDSM hate speech”.
I can imagine this future. I certainly wouldn’t say that there’s anything wrong with BDSM, but probably best to leave it to adults to discover of their own accord.
Women don’t enjoy sex with men whose status is equal to or lower than theirs.
Oh, ok now I understand. Reminds me of a woman I once knew who decided she couldn’t associate (romantically or platonically) with any of her colleagues who were younger and lower-status than her, whether male or female. Its interesting, because she describes herself as a communist.
Do you know what her life and happiness level are like now? Would you guess she’s better or worse off than the women who freely chose to marry Henry?
No, but I’d guess she’s probably better off than that woman. I’ve already read that SSC article, and I understand your point, but I would hope that there is some way of avoiding the Henrys of the world without anyone ever having to say “If I try to run away from home my family will break my legs”. Of course, there is a difference between forced marriages and arranged marriages.
I’ve already read that SSC article, and I understand your point, but I would hope that there is some way of avoiding the Henrys of the world without anyone ever having to say “If I try to run away from home my family will break my legs”.
I don’t thing even Jim advocates going that far. His position is more, “if I run away from home no one will financially support me and my status will go through the floor”.
I don’t thing even Jim advocates going that far. His position is more, “if I run away from home no one will financially support me and my status will go through the floor”.
It is true that the case I mentioned is a fairly extreme (but real) example, and not representative of arranged marriages in general. There is still a problem that even if it works in the case of benevolent and wise parents, it is really open to abuse.
Do you have an objective way to answer this question?
Also, are you proposing that men get to choose mates without parental oversight, possibly due to waiting longer to marry due to staying fertile longer?
The question is whether it on average works better than letting women chose their boyfriends and husbands without any parental oversight.
Do you have an objective way to answer this question?
You can compare happiness or fertility or whatever your favorite metric is between cultures that have different attitudes about this.
Also, are you proposing that men get to choose mates without parental oversight, possibly due to waiting longer to marry due to staying fertile longer?
Do men tend to make bad choices? Who are the male equivalents of Henry’s wives?
You can compare happiness or fertility or whatever your favorite metric is between cultures that have different attitudes about this.
Well, a quick search seems to indicate that there’s no difference in average happyness and it seems probable that this could solve problems of dysgenics (assuming that the ‘right sort of people’ adopt this as quick or quicker than average) so I think I shall concede this point.
Do men tend to make bad choices? Who are the male equivalents of Henry’s wives?
Everyone makes bad choices. Men are the victims of emotionally abusive relationship at the same rate as women (the technical term for this is ‘pussy whipped’) although women are abused physically more.
Well, as long as we don’t teach children that homosexuals are evil, this seems acceptable to me. After all, we don’t teach children about BDSM (do we?) even though BDSM relationships could lead to children.
As for Jim’s views, well, blaming feminism does seem a lot more realistic than blaming gays, although his views are not without their own problems.
Women don’t enjoy sex?
I had a conversation with an Indian friend of mine a while ago, who was telling me about a friend of hers who was in a forced marriage. At the wedding the bride was in tears (of sadness), hugging her friends and refusing to let go. While I can see that highly intelligent women not having children can be a source of concern for anyone who does not believe that the singularity will ride in and save the day, I’d like to think there is a better third option that does not cause emotional damage. Not that reality conforms to what I want to believe...
As far as I know not yet (outside of may be some of the most progressive schools). However, if progressivism continues on its current track within several decades sentiments like that will be considered “anti-BDSM hate speech”.
Women don’t enjoy sex with men whose status is equal to or lower than theirs.
Do you know what her life and happiness level are like now? Would you guess she’s better or worse off than the women who freely chose to marry Henry?
A few ironically contradictory things just struck me about these topics:
1) If you want to be in a patriarchal relationship, then the most politically correct way to describe this is to say its a D/s kink thing. Helps if there’s actual spanking involved. Actually, I think it is accurate to say that among my peer goup, traditional relationships would be regarded as a kink.
2) Being pro-arranged marriages isn’t PC because feminism, but being anti-arranged marriages isn’t PC because you are being intolerant of Indian culture.
There is in fact a significant overlap between “game” and BDSM, the latter not merely in the “kinky bedroom games” sense, but as an ideology about what constitutes natural and proper relations between men and women. For example, the well-known Roissy blogger takes his pseudonym from “The Story of O”, whose action (ho ho) largely takes place at a chateau near the French town of Roissy. Back when his blog was called “Roissy in D.C” (paralleling the full name of the real town, Roissy-en-France) the masthead picture was a still from the film of the book. And surely the least important aspect of John Norman’s notorious Gor novels is the overt BDSM activities.
1) Agree. I find that even monogamy gives me the creeps unless I think of it as kink.
2) Nitpick: unforced arranged marriages happen too. I would say that being anti those might be un-PC, but being anti-forced marriages is entirely PC. Admittedly the boundary between encouragement to marry the selected partner and being forced is not too sharp.
Citation needed?
While I can’t speak from personal experience (I’m neither a woman, nor did I have plenty of sexual partners to compare with) this doesn’t strike me as true based on conversations I had about the subject.
The fact that there are people who make stupid (grossly sub-optimal w.r.t. their own preferences) life decisions is a cost for a society which in general gives people substantial freedom to make their own decisions.
The classical liberal position is that this kind of freedom benefits most people. It might harm a few of them, but this is considered an acceptable trade-off.
In a traditional, arranged marriage system, where marriage is negotiated between the parents of the prospective spouses, you have that in general the parents’ interests don’t perfectly track the interests of their children. Moreover, while stupid children might be protected from their stupidity by smarter parents, smart children might be harmed by stupid parents that pick bad matches for them.
Children’s intelligence correlates with their parents, while their parents have more life experience, so on average parental advice ought to be fairly good.
Ceteris paribus, yes, but arranged marriage systems generally entail little time for the parents to get to know the prospective spouse for their child (up to the extreme case of black-box marriage) and generally also make divorce difficult or impossible.
Overall, I think that, even if the parents interests are perfectly lined to the interests of their child, the chances of landing a bad match and getting stuck with it are higher in an arranged marriage system than in a free-choice system.
South Asia, where arranged marriages are still commonplace, with its high rates of domestic violence (India, Pakistan) and honor killings, is a piece of evidence pointing in that direction.
Maybe there is a compromise, where children listen to their parent’s advice and take it seriously (as opposed to doing the opposite because they want to rebel) but in the end make their own decisions. And social norms could be pro-natalist without endorsing domestic violence.
I can imagine this future. I certainly wouldn’t say that there’s anything wrong with BDSM, but probably best to leave it to adults to discover of their own accord.
Oh, ok now I understand. Reminds me of a woman I once knew who decided she couldn’t associate (romantically or platonically) with any of her colleagues who were younger and lower-status than her, whether male or female. Its interesting, because she describes herself as a communist.
No, but I’d guess she’s probably better off than that woman. I’ve already read that SSC article, and I understand your point, but I would hope that there is some way of avoiding the Henrys of the world without anyone ever having to say “If I try to run away from home my family will break my legs”. Of course, there is a difference between forced marriages and arranged marriages.
I don’t thing even Jim advocates going that far. His position is more, “if I run away from home no one will financially support me and my status will go through the floor”.
It is true that the case I mentioned is a fairly extreme (but real) example, and not representative of arranged marriages in general. There is still a problem that even if it works in the case of benevolent and wise parents, it is really open to abuse.
The question is whether it on average works better than letting women chose their boyfriends and husbands without any parental oversight.
Do you have an objective way to answer this question?
Also, are you proposing that men get to choose mates without parental oversight, possibly due to waiting longer to marry due to staying fertile longer?
You can compare happiness or fertility or whatever your favorite metric is between cultures that have different attitudes about this.
Do men tend to make bad choices? Who are the male equivalents of Henry’s wives?
Well, a quick search seems to indicate that there’s no difference in average happyness and it seems probable that this could solve problems of dysgenics (assuming that the ‘right sort of people’ adopt this as quick or quicker than average) so I think I shall concede this point.
Everyone makes bad choices. Men are the victims of emotionally abusive relationship at the same rate as women (the technical term for this is ‘pussy whipped’) although women are abused physically more.