Just because we can’t visualize something doesn’t mean we can’t work out the rules. If quantum mechanical models accurately describe what’s happening, the fact that we can’t picture it in our heads is not a problem.
I would be a lot more willing to help you understand if I didn’t think you’re being obtuse on purpose though.
If quantum mechanical models accurately describe what’s happening, the fact that we can’t picture it in our heads is not a problem.
I think there’s a danger of equivocating here on the words “what’s happening.” In other words, which “what’s happening” do the QM models describe?
I’ll elaborate. If we observe X, do the QM models describe X, or do they describe the (so far unobserved) phenomena that may underly X?
If the mathematical QM model merely describes X, it’s hard to see how it is anything other than a very succinct cataloging of the observations, put in a very useful form. That’s quite an achievement, but I can understand the hesitation with calling it an explanation or a theory.
If the QM model actually describes some as-yet unobserved phenomena that is proposed to underly X, then it seems like it avoids Monkeymind’s criticisms because there is actually something additional being posited to be happening, behind the scenes as it were.
If it is the latter, I’d be interested in seeing an example (anything in QM).
If the QM model actually describes some as-yet unobserved phenomena that is proposed to underly X, then it seems like it avoids Monkeymind’s criticisms because there is actually something additional being posited to be happening, behind the scenes as it were.
There are probably more examples than I’m aware of, but as I pointed out in an earlier comment to Monkeymind, quantum entanglement, which was regarded as an extremely counterintuitive prediction, was predicted by quantum mechanical models well in advance of observation.
Yes, but I’m a lawyer and lack the background to give a more specific example. All I’m trying to say is that disbelieving QM does have practical, real-world consequences.
Well, I agree that there are things about the scientific process that could be done better, and I think most of the other people here would also, but I expect we disagree about the specifics. Can you tell me what you think ought to be done differently and why you think it would work better?
I think it would be easier to understand if you were to frame it in terms of specific examples. Supposing you want to find something out, how would you expect a scientist to do it, and how would you do it differently? Try using an example with a specific question, like “what makes it rain?” or, if you want to exercise some more creativity, something that we can’t easily look up the answers to, like “if you put someone in a position of power, do they really become more inclined to take advantage of people, or is it just a difference of opportunity?”
At this point, I don’t think we can work through this article without hashing out our differences about the scientific method. There’s too much of a gap of inferential distance (and please actually read that post I’m linking to, I’m not just putting it there for thematic appropriateness.)
This makes good sense and is the very reason why it is crucial to define ones KEY TERMS in the hypothesis stage. It is why I press for precise definitions, only to be told I do not understand or I am being obtuse, etc. I have been told that scientists use precise terms, but wave, particle, energy are anything but. It seems that they are having difficulty telling the difference between nouns and verbs as has already been discussed. Let us stick with WAVE for now:
Give me EY’s definition of wave (as pertains to this article). I gave mine earlier and was told it was not the scientific one as relating to the particle/wave duality. If wave is a disturbance through a medium, then wave is not an it but a what. This whole wave/particle paradox might have been avoided had someone defined the terms waaaay back then.
Scientists did define their terms way back then. They never introduced the idea of a wave/particle duality without knowing exactly what they meant.
The reason I keep diverting from the topic is that it takes more than just defining one’s terms to communicate complex ideas without a shared body of information. Try and explain evolution to a person who’s been brought up in a fundamentalist household, for instance, and while you might pat yourself on the back afterwards for an explanation well delivered, they’re probably not going to come away understanding it, unless you take the time to bridge the entire gap of uncomprehension.
I seriously suggest reading the Mysterious Answers to Mysterious Questions sequence, which I linked to before, because some of the points you’re expressing are misconceptions that it was written for the specific purpose of addressing. Eliezer wrote the sequence in order to bring people up to the point of being able to meaningfully discuss the ideas we work with here without talking past each other. He put a lot of work into them, and I’d rather not replicate it all when it’s already there for exactly that reason. There is a reason that Mysterious Answers to Mysterious Questions is the first in the suggested reading order of the sequences, and the quantum physics sequence is the fifth.
Yes, it does take far more than just defining ones terms, but we must start there b4 we can go anywhere else! I don’t mean a infinite number of now define that, now define that....just the KEY TERMS of one’s hypothesis b4 moving on to the theory. Whatever the defs are they must be used CONSISTENTLY.
I agree that key terms need a definition. They have apparently all been defined before, but no one here has yet shown an interest in giving those (or any) precise definitions right now. I’m not sure why, especially given that this is LessWrong. I’d help you out on that, but I honestly don’t know the precise definition that QM theorists use for wave. Surely someone must know?
While there are plenty of issues affecting reproducibility of scientific results, physics is much better in this area than other sciences having stricter requirements to establish statistical significance.
Just because we can’t visualize something doesn’t mean we can’t work out the rules. If quantum mechanical models accurately describe what’s happening, the fact that we can’t picture it in our heads is not a problem.
I would be a lot more willing to help you understand if I didn’t think you’re being obtuse on purpose though.
I think there’s a danger of equivocating here on the words “what’s happening.” In other words, which “what’s happening” do the QM models describe?
I’ll elaborate. If we observe X, do the QM models describe X, or do they describe the (so far unobserved) phenomena that may underly X?
If the mathematical QM model merely describes X, it’s hard to see how it is anything other than a very succinct cataloging of the observations, put in a very useful form. That’s quite an achievement, but I can understand the hesitation with calling it an explanation or a theory.
If the QM model actually describes some as-yet unobserved phenomena that is proposed to underly X, then it seems like it avoids Monkeymind’s criticisms because there is actually something additional being posited to be happening, behind the scenes as it were.
If it is the latter, I’d be interested in seeing an example (anything in QM).
There are probably more examples than I’m aware of, but as I pointed out in an earlier comment to Monkeymind, quantum entanglement, which was regarded as an extremely counterintuitive prediction, was predicted by quantum mechanical models well in advance of observation.
ETA: Bose-Einstein condensates also come to mind.
If QM were false, computer circuits would not work.
That depends how false, and in what ways.
Yes, but I’m a lawyer and lack the background to give a more specific example. All I’m trying to say is that disbelieving QM does have practical, real-world consequences.
x
Well, I agree that there are things about the scientific process that could be done better, and I think most of the other people here would also, but I expect we disagree about the specifics. Can you tell me what you think ought to be done differently and why you think it would work better?
x
That’s an extremely unclear explanation.
I think it would be easier to understand if you were to frame it in terms of specific examples. Supposing you want to find something out, how would you expect a scientist to do it, and how would you do it differently? Try using an example with a specific question, like “what makes it rain?” or, if you want to exercise some more creativity, something that we can’t easily look up the answers to, like “if you put someone in a position of power, do they really become more inclined to take advantage of people, or is it just a difference of opportunity?”
At this point, I don’t think we can work through this article without hashing out our differences about the scientific method. There’s too much of a gap of inferential distance (and please actually read that post I’m linking to, I’m not just putting it there for thematic appropriateness.)
x
Scientists did define their terms way back then. They never introduced the idea of a wave/particle duality without knowing exactly what they meant.
The reason I keep diverting from the topic is that it takes more than just defining one’s terms to communicate complex ideas without a shared body of information. Try and explain evolution to a person who’s been brought up in a fundamentalist household, for instance, and while you might pat yourself on the back afterwards for an explanation well delivered, they’re probably not going to come away understanding it, unless you take the time to bridge the entire gap of uncomprehension.
I seriously suggest reading the Mysterious Answers to Mysterious Questions sequence, which I linked to before, because some of the points you’re expressing are misconceptions that it was written for the specific purpose of addressing. Eliezer wrote the sequence in order to bring people up to the point of being able to meaningfully discuss the ideas we work with here without talking past each other. He put a lot of work into them, and I’d rather not replicate it all when it’s already there for exactly that reason. There is a reason that Mysterious Answers to Mysterious Questions is the first in the suggested reading order of the sequences, and the quantum physics sequence is the fifth.
x
I agree that key terms need a definition. They have apparently all been defined before, but no one here has yet shown an interest in giving those (or any) precise definitions right now. I’m not sure why, especially given that this is LessWrong. I’d help you out on that, but I honestly don’t know the precise definition that QM theorists use for wave. Surely someone must know?
What wrong answers do you see it giving?
While there are plenty of issues affecting reproducibility of scientific results, physics is much better in this area than other sciences having stricter requirements to establish statistical significance.