I haven’t said IE claimed that, but that “getting people to take an action simultaneously is a central problem that has to be solved”, and he does hint at a kickstarter-like site for coordination, so it’s not far fetched from the book.
pay attention that i did give examples of more complicated ‘contracts’ than “everybody takes action X”. the more the site evolves the more options it will have. but that still doesn’t reach project management level. it’s simple, but not too simple to not be useful.
of course there are ways for humans to cooperate at larger numbers than 150, or else we wouldn’t have modern society. or any society for that matter. I meant that it’s hard for humans to do it with some kinds of social structures. but it’s not so important, we can leave it aside (the important bit isn’t the number, but the notion that the more people, the more coordination gets difficult).
I think the minimum viable project is much more than google forms (no need to even bother if it doesn’t get better than Facebook and Twitter). and actually there is a similar site, but for me it also doesn’t reach minimum viable product. most of what i described in the post is what i think should part of the minimum viable product.
I haven’t said IE claimed that, but that “getting people to take an action simultaneously is a central problem that has to be solved”, and he does hint at a kickstarter-like site for coordination, so it’s not far fetched from the book.
I don’t think the difficult thing about coordination is to get people to take an action simultaneously. I think it’s a far bigger problem to get people to stick with a certain project for a longer timeframe.
Getting people with different views to a consensus about how a problem is to be solved is another general coordination problem.
yes, I agree that both of these are also large problems of coordination that aren’t solved by collective action. we will need to find ways to do all of these better.
I think the minimum viable project is much more than google forms (no need to even bother if it doesn’t get better than Facebook and Twitter).
This sounds to me like you ignore the actual problem. The problem is organizing people. The problem isn’t the tool to organize.
Do you believe that it’s currently impossible to run such a campaign with Google Forms and email and at the same if you put everything on the website, it would suddenly work?
Why do you think people can’t effectively commit by filling out Google Forms?
Could you fund a video game with google forms? (assuming it has a PayPal widget, if needed)
There are three main problems i see with google forms.
First, i think it’ll be harder to get people on board, much harder to get many people on board, and much harder still to do it consistently.
Second, there’s probably a high value to a system that ensures (or at least makes it more probable) that someone who obligated to take an action actually took it. if you don’t have such a system, then whatever you did, you’re arguably almost in the starting same position. everyone might still be suspicious that no one else will take action, and so nobody will take it.
the third connects to the second, but may be different enough—A platform could gain trust. not only would i not fund a video game through google forms, i may not even want to fund it through certain kickstarter-like sites, cause i don’t trust them as i trust kickstarter.
That’s not getting into functionality that to me seems important.
Could you fund a video game with google forms? (assuming it has a PayPal widget, if needed)
I see no reason why you shouldn’t be able to do that. But for a MVP you might start with a project that’s even smaller.
The sign-up for our LessWrong Community Weekend works well through Google form and we are confident to get 150 people to attend.
Second, there’s probably a high value to a system that ensures (or at least makes it more probable) that someone who obligated to take an action actually took it.
I think it’s likely that it’s easier to solve the system of ensuring that as many people as possible who committed to do something actually do something for one particular campaign then to solve it in a fully general way.
the third connects to the second, but may be different enough—A platform could gain trust.
That’s a bad reaction to proposing to do a MVP. Whatever you do, a platform won’t have trust at the beginning.
At the starty, you likely have to get trust by getting influential people or organizations to endorse your campaign.
1. I’d love to see that. surely, it’s not probable that a funding campaign which uses google forms instead of KickStarter would be better off, right? i think we have concluded this line of thought—i’m skeptical, and you don’t see a reason why not.
Though, again, 150 people attending a LW meeting is far from the type of coordination this site will be for. i’m not blind to the fact we have better coordination tools than going door-to-door and talking to people—i say that the coordination tools we have today aren’t sufficient for more complicated coordination—where there are a lot of people involved, several types of actors, many incentives, etc...
2. maybe you’re right. still, it’s worth a try and a little effort :)
3. that wasn’t my reaction for doing an MVP, but reasoning for a platform being good, and saying that google forms isn’t a platform (more specifically, it isn’t a platform for coordinating action, but a more general platform, so it can’t be trusted as one)
surely, it’s not probable that a funding campaign which uses google forms instead of KickStarter would be better off, right? My point isn’t that Google Forms is more effective then having
That’s moving the goal post. Finished well-engineered products are usually more effective then generalized tools with you can use for an MVP.
That doesn’t mean that the way to proceed isn’t building a MVP before desgining the bigger platform.
Running the MVC gives you a much better idea of what the actual challenges happen to be.
I haven’t said IE claimed that, but that “getting people to take an action simultaneously is a central problem that has to be solved”, and he does hint at a kickstarter-like site for coordination, so it’s not far fetched from the book.
pay attention that i did give examples of more complicated ‘contracts’ than “everybody takes action X”. the more the site evolves the more options it will have. but that still doesn’t reach project management level. it’s simple, but not too simple to not be useful.
of course there are ways for humans to cooperate at larger numbers than 150, or else we wouldn’t have modern society. or any society for that matter. I meant that it’s hard for humans to do it with some kinds of social structures. but it’s not so important, we can leave it aside (the important bit isn’t the number, but the notion that the more people, the more coordination gets difficult).
I think the minimum viable project is much more than google forms (no need to even bother if it doesn’t get better than Facebook and Twitter). and actually there is a similar site, but for me it also doesn’t reach minimum viable product. most of what i described in the post is what i think should part of the minimum viable product.
I don’t think the difficult thing about coordination is to get people to take an action simultaneously. I think it’s a far bigger problem to get people to stick with a certain project for a longer timeframe.
Getting people with different views to a consensus about how a problem is to be solved is another general coordination problem.
yes, I agree that both of these are also large problems of coordination that aren’t solved by collective action. we will need to find ways to do all of these better.
This sounds to me like you ignore the actual problem. The problem is organizing people. The problem isn’t the tool to organize.
Do you believe that it’s currently impossible to run such a campaign with Google Forms and email and at the same if you put everything on the website, it would suddenly work?
Why do you think people can’t effectively commit by filling out Google Forms?
Could you fund a video game with google forms? (assuming it has a PayPal widget, if needed)
There are three main problems i see with google forms.
First, i think it’ll be harder to get people on board, much harder to get many people on board, and much harder still to do it consistently.
Second, there’s probably a high value to a system that ensures (or at least makes it more probable) that someone who obligated to take an action actually took it. if you don’t have such a system, then whatever you did, you’re arguably almost in the starting same position. everyone might still be suspicious that no one else will take action, and so nobody will take it.
the third connects to the second, but may be different enough—A platform could gain trust. not only would i not fund a video game through google forms, i may not even want to fund it through certain kickstarter-like sites, cause i don’t trust them as i trust kickstarter.
That’s not getting into functionality that to me seems important.
I see no reason why you shouldn’t be able to do that. But for a MVP you might start with a project that’s even smaller.
The sign-up for our LessWrong Community Weekend works well through Google form and we are confident to get 150 people to attend.
I think it’s likely that it’s easier to solve the system of ensuring that as many people as possible who committed to do something actually do something for one particular campaign then to solve it in a fully general way.
That’s a bad reaction to proposing to do a MVP. Whatever you do, a platform won’t have trust at the beginning.
At the starty, you likely have to get trust by getting influential people or organizations to endorse your campaign.
1. I’d love to see that. surely, it’s not probable that a funding campaign which uses google forms instead of KickStarter would be better off, right? i think we have concluded this line of thought—i’m skeptical, and you don’t see a reason why not.
Though, again, 150 people attending a LW meeting is far from the type of coordination this site will be for. i’m not blind to the fact we have better coordination tools than going door-to-door and talking to people—i say that the coordination tools we have today aren’t sufficient for more complicated coordination—where there are a lot of people involved, several types of actors, many incentives, etc...
2. maybe you’re right. still, it’s worth a try and a little effort :)
3. that wasn’t my reaction for doing an MVP, but reasoning for a platform being good, and saying that google forms isn’t a platform (more specifically, it isn’t a platform for coordinating action, but a more general platform, so it can’t be trusted as one)
That’s moving the goal post. Finished well-engineered products are usually more effective then generalized tools with you can use for an MVP.
That doesn’t mean that the way to proceed isn’t building a MVP before desgining the bigger platform.
Running the MVC gives you a much better idea of what the actual challenges happen to be.
Sure, i agree with you. just not on the right scale/functionality for the MVP.