I guess what I am getting at is: Kierkegaard’s pre-ontology doesn’t selectively choose an ontology that has high correspondence with reality, so he has a weak pre-ontolological epistemology. It is possible to have a better pre-ontological epistemology that Kierkegaard. Meditation probably helps, as do the principles discussed in this post on problem formulation. (To the extent that I take pre-ontology/meta-ontology seriously, I guess I might be a postrationalist according to some definitions)
A specific example of a pre-ontological epistemology is a “guess-and-check-and-refine” procedure, where you get acquainted with the phenomenon of interest, come up with some different ontologies for it, check these ontologies based on factors like correspondence with (your experience of) the phenomenon and internal coherence, and refine them when they have problems and it’s possible to improve them. This has some similarities to Solomonoff induction though obviously there are important differences. Even in the absence of perfect knowledge of anything and without resolving philosophical skepticism, this procedure selectively chooses ontologies that have higher correspondence with reality.
I guess you could describe this as “selecting an ontology based on how useful it is according to your telos” but this seems like a misleading description; the specific criteria used aren’t directly about usefulness, and relate to usefulness largely through being proxies for truth.
It’s quite possible that we don’t disagree on any of these points and I’m just taking issue with your description.
It’s quite possible that we don’t disagree on any of these points and I’m just taking issue with your description.
That might well be the case. I don’t have much of an answer about how to address the ontic directly without ontology and view learning about how to more fully engage it a key aspect of the zen practice I engage in, but zen also pushes you away from using language about these topics so while I may be getting more in touch with the ontic myself I’m not developing a skill to communicate about it, largely because the two are viewed to be in conflict and learning to talk about it obscures the ability to get in direct contact with it. This seems a limitation of the techniques I’m using but I’m not (yet) in a position to either say it’s a necessary limitation or that we can go beyond it.
Telos/purpose/usefulness/will is my best way of talking about what I might describe as the impersonal animating force of the universe that exists prior to our understanding of it, but I agree something is lost when I try to nail it down into language and talk about usefulness to a purpose because it puts it in the language of measurement, although I think you are right that truth is often instrumentally so important to any purpose that it ends up dominating our concerns such that rationality practice is dramatically more effective at creating the world we desire than most anything else, hence why I try to at least occasionally emphasize that metarationality seeks to realize the limitations of rationality so that we can grapple with them while also not forgetting how useful rationality is!
Mod Note: this comment seems more confrontational than it needs to be. (A couple other comments in the thread in the thread also seem like they probably cross the line. I haven’t had time to process everything and form a clear opinion, but wanted to make at least a brief note)
(this is not a comment one way or another on the overall conversation)
Added: It seems the comment I replied to has been deleted.
I guess what I am getting at is: Kierkegaard’s pre-ontology doesn’t selectively choose an ontology that has high correspondence with reality, so he has a weak pre-ontolological epistemology. It is possible to have a better pre-ontological epistemology that Kierkegaard. Meditation probably helps, as do the principles discussed in this post on problem formulation. (To the extent that I take pre-ontology/meta-ontology seriously, I guess I might be a postrationalist according to some definitions)
A specific example of a pre-ontological epistemology is a “guess-and-check-and-refine” procedure, where you get acquainted with the phenomenon of interest, come up with some different ontologies for it, check these ontologies based on factors like correspondence with (your experience of) the phenomenon and internal coherence, and refine them when they have problems and it’s possible to improve them. This has some similarities to Solomonoff induction though obviously there are important differences. Even in the absence of perfect knowledge of anything and without resolving philosophical skepticism, this procedure selectively chooses ontologies that have higher correspondence with reality.
I guess you could describe this as “selecting an ontology based on how useful it is according to your telos” but this seems like a misleading description; the specific criteria used aren’t directly about usefulness, and relate to usefulness largely through being proxies for truth.
It’s quite possible that we don’t disagree on any of these points and I’m just taking issue with your description.
That might well be the case. I don’t have much of an answer about how to address the ontic directly without ontology and view learning about how to more fully engage it a key aspect of the zen practice I engage in, but zen also pushes you away from using language about these topics so while I may be getting more in touch with the ontic myself I’m not developing a skill to communicate about it, largely because the two are viewed to be in conflict and learning to talk about it obscures the ability to get in direct contact with it. This seems a limitation of the techniques I’m using but I’m not (yet) in a position to either say it’s a necessary limitation or that we can go beyond it.
Telos/purpose/usefulness/will is my best way of talking about what I might describe as the impersonal animating force of the universe that exists prior to our understanding of it, but I agree something is lost when I try to nail it down into language and talk about usefulness to a purpose because it puts it in the language of measurement, although I think you are right that truth is often instrumentally so important to any purpose that it ends up dominating our concerns such that rationality practice is dramatically more effective at creating the world we desire than most anything else, hence why I try to at least occasionally emphasize that metarationality seeks to realize the limitations of rationality so that we can grapple with them while also not forgetting how useful rationality is!
Mod Note: this comment seems more confrontational than it needs to be. (A couple other comments in the thread in the thread also seem like they probably cross the line. I haven’t had time to process everything and form a clear opinion, but wanted to make at least a brief note)
(this is not a comment one way or another on the overall conversation)
Added: It seems the comment I replied to has been deleted.