And finally, I am confused again and again why there are so many posts about epistemic rationality and so few about instrumental rationality.
Probably because teaching instrumental rationality isn’t to the comparative advantage of anyone here. There’s already tons of resources out there on improving your willpower, getting rich, becoming happier, being more attractive, losing weight, etc. You can go out and buy a CBT workbook written by a Phd psychologist on almost any subject—why would you want some internet user to write up a post instead?
Out of curiosity, what type of instrumental rationality posts would you like to see here?
There’s already tons of resources out there on improving your willpower, getting rich, becoming happier, being more attractive, losing weight, etc. You can go out and buy a CBT workbook written by a Phd psychologist on almost any subject—why would you want some internet user to write up a post instead?
Then linking to it would be interesting. I can’t reasonably review the whole literature (that again reviews academic literature) to find the better or best books on the topics of my interest.
So many self-help books are either crap because their content is worthless or painful to read because they have such a low content-to-word ratio for any reasonable metric. I want just the facts. Take investing as an example: It can be summarized in this one sentence “Take as much money as you are comfortable with and invest it in a broad index fund, taking out money so to come out with zero money at the moment of your death, except if you want to leave them some money.” And still there is a host of books from professional investors detailing technical analysis of the most obscure financial products.
Out of curiosity, what type of instrumental rationality posts would you like to see here?
Have reading groups reviewing books of interest. Post summaries of books of interest or reviews. Discuss the cutting edge of practical research, if relevant to our lifes. This is staying with your observation that most practically interesting stuff is already written.
Moving on, we know about all kinds of biases. We also know that some of those biases are helped by simply knowing about them, some are not. For the latter you need some kind of behavioural change. I do not know about books helping with that.
I know that this post is not precise and it can’t be, as it explores what could be. If I knew exactly what I wanted, I would aready get it, it is a process of exploring.
So many self-help books are either crap because their content is worthless or painful to read because they have such a low content-to-word ratio for any reasonable metric. I want just the facts.
I’ve found that “just the facts” doesn’t really work for self-help, because you need to a) be able to remember the advice b) believe on an emotional, not just rational level that it works and c) be actually motivated to implement the advice. This usually necessitates having the giver of advice drum it into you a whole bunch of different ways over the course of the eight hours or so spent reading the book.
Have reading groups reviewing books of interest. Post summaries of books of interest or reviews. Discuss the cutting edge of practical research, if relevant to our lifes. This is staying with your observation that most practically interesting stuff is already written.
One problem with this is that “reviewing” self-help books is hard because ultimately the judge of a good self-help book is whether or not it helps you, and you can’t judge that until a few months down the road. Plus there can be an infinity of confounding factors.
But I can see your point. Making practical instrumentality issues more of a theme of the conversation here is appealing to me. Cut down on the discussion of boring, useless things (to me, of course) like Newcomb’s problem and utility functions and instead discuss how to be happy and how to make money.
However, I have seen a few people complain about how LessWrong’s quality is deteriorating because the discussion is being overrun with “self-help”. So not everyone feels this way, for whatever reason.
I’ve found that “just the facts” doesn’t really work for self-help, because you need to a) be able to remember the advice b) believe on an emotional, not just rational level that it works and c) be actually motivated to implement the advice. This usually necessitates having the giver of advice drum it into you a whole bunch of different ways over the course of the eight hours or so spent reading the book.
Very true and a good observation. My reading of stoic practice informs this further: They had their sayings and short lists of “just the facts” but also put emphasis on their continuous practice. Indeed, my current critique of lesswrong is based on this impression. But to counter your point: I had things like Mister Money Moustache in mind where multiple screen pages are devoted to a single sentence of actual advice. I dislike that just as I don’t like Eliezer’s roundabout way of explaining things.
One problem with this is that “reviewing” self-help books is hard because ultimately the judge of a good self-help book is whether or not it helps you, and you can’t judge that until a few months down the road. Plus there can be an infinity of confounding factors.
This can be helped by stating the criteria in advance. A few of the important criteria, at least for me, are correctness of advice, academic support, high information density and readability. So some kind of judgement can be readily made immediately after reading the book. Or a professional can review the book regarding it’s correctness.
But I can see your point. Making practical instrumentality issues more of a theme of the conversation here is appealing to me. Cut down on the discussion of boring, useless things (to me, of course) like Newcomb’s problem and utility functions and instead discuss how to be happy and how to make money.
However, I have seen a few people complain about how LessWrong’s quality is deteriorating because the discussion is being overrun with “self-help”. So not everyone feels this way, for whatever reason.
My suggestion is/was to seperate the discussion part of lesswrong in two parts: Instrumental and epistemic. That way everyone gets his part without reading too much, for them, unnecessary content. But people are opposed to something like that, too. Fact is, the community here is changing and something has to be done about that. Usually people are very intelligent and informed around here so I would love to hear their opinions on issues that matter to me.
Maybe we should have a “Instrumental Rationality Books” thread or something, similar to the “best textbooks” thread but with an emphasis on good self-help books or books that are otherwise useful in an everyday way.
Take investing as an example: It can be summarized in this one sentence “Take as much money as you are comfortable with and invest it in a broad index fund, taking out money so to come out with zero money at the moment of your death, except if you want to leave them some money.”
This assumes that you now when you will die and can predict in advance how interest rates will vary over the future. It also ignores akrasia issues.
why would you want some internet user to write up a post instead?
A group of internet users could discuss an existing book or a group of books, and say for example: “this part worked for me”, “this part didn’t work for me”, “I did this meta action to not forget using this part”, “here is a research that disproves one of the assumptions in the book” etc. They don’t have to replace the books, just build on them further.
Seems to be that many books are optimized (more or less successfully) to be bestsellers. A book that actually changes your life will not necessarily be more popular than a book that impressed you and makes you recommend it to your friends, even if your life remains unchanged or if the only change is being more (falsely) optimistic about your future successes.
Probably because teaching instrumental rationality isn’t to the comparative advantage of anyone here. There’s already tons of resources out there on improving your willpower, getting rich, becoming happier, being more attractive, losing weight, etc. You can go out and buy a CBT workbook written by a Phd psychologist on almost any subject—why would you want some internet user to write up a post instead?
Out of curiosity, what type of instrumental rationality posts would you like to see here?
Then linking to it would be interesting. I can’t reasonably review the whole literature (that again reviews academic literature) to find the better or best books on the topics of my interest.
So many self-help books are either crap because their content is worthless or painful to read because they have such a low content-to-word ratio for any reasonable metric. I want just the facts. Take investing as an example: It can be summarized in this one sentence “Take as much money as you are comfortable with and invest it in a broad index fund, taking out money so to come out with zero money at the moment of your death, except if you want to leave them some money.” And still there is a host of books from professional investors detailing technical analysis of the most obscure financial products.
Have reading groups reviewing books of interest. Post summaries of books of interest or reviews. Discuss the cutting edge of practical research, if relevant to our lifes. This is staying with your observation that most practically interesting stuff is already written.
Moving on, we know about all kinds of biases. We also know that some of those biases are helped by simply knowing about them, some are not. For the latter you need some kind of behavioural change. I do not know about books helping with that.
I know that this post is not precise and it can’t be, as it explores what could be. If I knew exactly what I wanted, I would aready get it, it is a process of exploring.
I’ve found that “just the facts” doesn’t really work for self-help, because you need to a) be able to remember the advice b) believe on an emotional, not just rational level that it works and c) be actually motivated to implement the advice. This usually necessitates having the giver of advice drum it into you a whole bunch of different ways over the course of the eight hours or so spent reading the book.
One problem with this is that “reviewing” self-help books is hard because ultimately the judge of a good self-help book is whether or not it helps you, and you can’t judge that until a few months down the road. Plus there can be an infinity of confounding factors.
But I can see your point. Making practical instrumentality issues more of a theme of the conversation here is appealing to me. Cut down on the discussion of boring, useless things (to me, of course) like Newcomb’s problem and utility functions and instead discuss how to be happy and how to make money.
However, I have seen a few people complain about how LessWrong’s quality is deteriorating because the discussion is being overrun with “self-help”. So not everyone feels this way, for whatever reason.
Very true and a good observation. My reading of stoic practice informs this further: They had their sayings and short lists of “just the facts” but also put emphasis on their continuous practice. Indeed, my current critique of lesswrong is based on this impression. But to counter your point: I had things like Mister Money Moustache in mind where multiple screen pages are devoted to a single sentence of actual advice. I dislike that just as I don’t like Eliezer’s roundabout way of explaining things.
This can be helped by stating the criteria in advance. A few of the important criteria, at least for me, are correctness of advice, academic support, high information density and readability. So some kind of judgement can be readily made immediately after reading the book. Or a professional can review the book regarding it’s correctness.
However, I have seen a few people complain about how LessWrong’s quality is deteriorating because the discussion is being overrun with “self-help”. So not everyone feels this way, for whatever reason.
My suggestion is/was to seperate the discussion part of lesswrong in two parts: Instrumental and epistemic. That way everyone gets his part without reading too much, for them, unnecessary content. But people are opposed to something like that, too. Fact is, the community here is changing and something has to be done about that. Usually people are very intelligent and informed around here so I would love to hear their opinions on issues that matter to me.
Maybe we should have a “Instrumental Rationality Books” thread or something, similar to the “best textbooks” thread but with an emphasis on good self-help books or books that are otherwise useful in an everyday way.
That sounds like a good idea. I might make it in the next few days if no one else does.
This assumes that you now when you will die and can predict in advance how interest rates will vary over the future. It also ignores akrasia issues.
A group of internet users could discuss an existing book or a group of books, and say for example: “this part worked for me”, “this part didn’t work for me”, “I did this meta action to not forget using this part”, “here is a research that disproves one of the assumptions in the book” etc. They don’t have to replace the books, just build on them further.
Seems to be that many books are optimized (more or less successfully) to be bestsellers. A book that actually changes your life will not necessarily be more popular than a book that impressed you and makes you recommend it to your friends, even if your life remains unchanged or if the only change is being more (falsely) optimistic about your future successes.