Self fulfilling prophecies are only epistemically wrong when you fail to act upon them. Failing, maybe out of cynicism, sophistication or simply being too clever, rationalizing them away; the result will be the same.
There’s a potential barrier there. You can tunnel through it, or not. Tunneling can sound magical and counterintuitive. It’s not. There are definite reasons why it can work.
Sometimes, however, you don’t know those reasons, but can observe it appears to work for other people anyway. Then you may want to find a way to bootstrap the process, like self pretending. Or trying to copy someone else
I can say these words but not the rule that generates them, or the rule behind the rule; one can only hope that by using the ideas, perhaps, similar machinery might be born inside you.
Different people have different tastes, and even a single person may react differently to the same stimulus, depending on the conditions in which they find themselves.
Some people don’t have an issue with that. They are ready to try as many times and different people as it takes to find one receptive, moving on as soon as it appears as though it won’t work with this person in particular.
Not only will they eventually find someone—and some will indeed have to search for longer—but will also act with more confidence, knowing they will succeed at some point.
I know that’s how it works for me anyway. I can’t take failure, nor rejection. So I try my very best to avoid it, and this involves trying to push the efforts I invest in a single encounter, to their limits, which isn’t as efficient as trying as many different persons as is needed to succeed.
Do you expect to find a way to be attractive enough to score on your first try ? Perhaps, to really minimize the risk of being rejected ?
This is a big insight among some of the “natural” PUA schools: that seeking tricks can in itself be evidence of a deeper lack of confidence… one that higher-quality women will pick up on.
Or, to put it another way, you can’t trick your way to sleeping with a woman who really has higher self-esteem than you. I don’t know if that’s a true statement, it’s more of a pseudo-aphorism to illustrate something that is true: namely, that PUAs who use tricks and lies get women who don’t believe they deserve anything better than tricks and lies.
that PUAs who use tricks and lies get women who don’t believe they deserve anything better than tricks and lies.
I don’t think this is true.
I think your line of thinking is like this: if girls can figure out when guys are pulling tricks, than those who actually respond to the tricks are knowingly responding to tricks. Therefore, they will pursue guys that they know are doing tricks because they feel that’s what they deserve.
The flawed assumption is that ANY girl can pick up incongruity (false body language). Thing is, the more attractive the girl is, the more “tests” (commonly called “shit tests”) she puts the guys that approach her through. They test to see whether that man is really an alpha male.
A less attractive girl, who rarely gets approached, wouldn’t bother putting the guy through a shit test and would prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt. Or, they just don’t look for any faults in the guy. Because he is the only guy that approached them, they may have a momentary halo effect with him and completely disregard any incongruity.
So I wouldn’t say they knowingly choose guys who are pulling tricks on them.
So I wouldn’t say they knowingly choose guys who are pulling tricks on them.
That’s not what I said. I said:
You can’t trick your way to sleeping with a woman who really has higher self-esteem than you
A significant number of PUA manipulation tricks rely on hooking a woman’s need for self-esteem validation. Those tricks won’t work on someone who doesn’t need the validation, whether they notice the trick as a trick or not… they may simply not take the bait.
By analogy, in Star Wars Episode I, Watto doesn’t notice at first that Qi Gonn is trying a mind trick on him… he just disagrees with the statement, treating it as if it were part of the conversation, i.e., “No, I won’t.”
A person with sufficient self-esteem will respond in the same way to many types of manipulative gambits—not seeing it as a trick, but also not responding to it. For example, see Neil Strauss’ stories in The Game about his girlfriend Lisa—the few manipulation tricks he tried on her just fell flat, because she didn’t need any validation from him.
As the Jedi say, “it’s easy to fool the weak-minded”. But that doesn’t mean you want to date them, if you have any self-esteem of your own. So people tend to end up in relationships with people at compatible levels of self-esteem, regardless of whether one of the people is a PUA .
A significant number of PUA manipulation tricks rely on hooking a woman’s need for self-esteem validation.
Much less than you think; the “neg” is only a small and unnecessary part of structured game.
I am actually in the process of becoming an instructor for natural game. I don’t even condone “negging” and actually recommend against it (I can tell you why if you want).
Much less than you think; the “neg” is only a small and unnecessary part of structured game.
I wasn’t thinking only of negs, but also of freeze-outs, compliance frames (e.g. “introduce your friends, it’s the polite thing to do”), qualification hoops (“so what makes you so special?”), etc. Even the use of lock-in props can be tied to self-esteem (“you’re not a thief, right?”).
This is what I’m referring to, in that women with higher self-esteem have a lower tolerance for these things, when used by someone who lacks an adequate sense of humor or self-esteem of their own. Whereas women with lower self-esteem will feel more compelled to respond and jump through the hoops, not because of the guy, but because her own emotions give her no other choice—even if she then hates herself afterward for her actions.
Self-esteem of course is just a convenient buzzword; it may not precisely refer to the personality variable I’m describing. One author calls it “differentiation”—the ability to separate one’s self from the opinion of others, and notes that relationships between people with two widely-separated levels of differentiation won’t last long. I’ve experienced it myself, both from the high- and low-differentiation positions.
It’s technically possible to have low self-esteem in some ways, and yet still have high differentiation, so self-esteem is probably the wrong word to use. I just didn’t want, early in the discussion, to have to spell out the definition of another word when self-esteem was reasonably close.
Anyway, this is what I was trying to say: a low-differentiation PUA will get low-differentiation partners, because those are the only ones they’ll be able to hook and keep. And the field of game training has moved increasingly towards teaching things that increase differentiation: i.e., non-reactivity, lack of outcome dependence, strong personal frames, etc.
And the field of game training has moved increasingly towards teaching things that increase differentiation: i.e., non-reactivity, lack of outcome dependence, strong personal frames, etc.
This is exactly what I am planning on teaching. I believe that structured game is mostly for people who already have these things, but are at a loss when it comes to what they need to do once in front of a woman. But the majority of people who need help lack skill in both areas.
Another personality variable that might come into play is a person’s self-monitoring behavior.
Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Looks like a useful site, too.
I believe that structured game is mostly for people who already have these things, but are at a loss when it comes to what they need to do once in front of a woman.
Perhaps, but from a marketing perspective, even the guys who don’t have those things look for “magic pickup lines” first before considering improving themselves.
But this is wandering way off topic now, especially since we now basically agree. ;-)
Self fulfilling prophecies are only epistemically wrong when you fail to act upon them. Failing, maybe out of cynicism, sophistication or simply being too clever, rationalizing them away; the result will be the same.
There’s a potential barrier there. You can tunnel through it, or not. Tunneling can sound magical and counterintuitive. It’s not. There are definite reasons why it can work.
Sometimes, however, you don’t know those reasons, but can observe it appears to work for other people anyway. Then you may want to find a way to bootstrap the process, like self pretending. Or trying to copy someone else
For instance, the party example. This might not apply to everyone but, I think the issue starts with even trying to find that optimal way to attract a partner. Do you expect to find a way to be attractive enough to score on your first try ? Perhaps, to really minimize the risk of being rejected ?
Different people have different tastes, and even a single person may react differently to the same stimulus, depending on the conditions in which they find themselves.
Some people don’t have an issue with that. They are ready to try as many times and different people as it takes to find one receptive, moving on as soon as it appears as though it won’t work with this person in particular.
Not only will they eventually find someone—and some will indeed have to search for longer—but will also act with more confidence, knowing they will succeed at some point.
I know that’s how it works for me anyway. I can’t take failure, nor rejection. So I try my very best to avoid it, and this involves trying to push the efforts I invest in a single encounter, to their limits, which isn’t as efficient as trying as many different persons as is needed to succeed.
This is a big insight among some of the “natural” PUA schools: that seeking tricks can in itself be evidence of a deeper lack of confidence… one that higher-quality women will pick up on.
Or, to put it another way, you can’t trick your way to sleeping with a woman who really has higher self-esteem than you. I don’t know if that’s a true statement, it’s more of a pseudo-aphorism to illustrate something that is true: namely, that PUAs who use tricks and lies get women who don’t believe they deserve anything better than tricks and lies.
I don’t think this is true.
I think your line of thinking is like this: if girls can figure out when guys are pulling tricks, than those who actually respond to the tricks are knowingly responding to tricks. Therefore, they will pursue guys that they know are doing tricks because they feel that’s what they deserve.
The flawed assumption is that ANY girl can pick up incongruity (false body language). Thing is, the more attractive the girl is, the more “tests” (commonly called “shit tests”) she puts the guys that approach her through. They test to see whether that man is really an alpha male.
A less attractive girl, who rarely gets approached, wouldn’t bother putting the guy through a shit test and would prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt. Or, they just don’t look for any faults in the guy. Because he is the only guy that approached them, they may have a momentary halo effect with him and completely disregard any incongruity.
So I wouldn’t say they knowingly choose guys who are pulling tricks on them.
That’s not what I said. I said:
A significant number of PUA manipulation tricks rely on hooking a woman’s need for self-esteem validation. Those tricks won’t work on someone who doesn’t need the validation, whether they notice the trick as a trick or not… they may simply not take the bait.
By analogy, in Star Wars Episode I, Watto doesn’t notice at first that Qi Gonn is trying a mind trick on him… he just disagrees with the statement, treating it as if it were part of the conversation, i.e., “No, I won’t.”
A person with sufficient self-esteem will respond in the same way to many types of manipulative gambits—not seeing it as a trick, but also not responding to it. For example, see Neil Strauss’ stories in The Game about his girlfriend Lisa—the few manipulation tricks he tried on her just fell flat, because she didn’t need any validation from him.
As the Jedi say, “it’s easy to fool the weak-minded”. But that doesn’t mean you want to date them, if you have any self-esteem of your own. So people tend to end up in relationships with people at compatible levels of self-esteem, regardless of whether one of the people is a PUA .
Much less than you think; the “neg” is only a small and unnecessary part of structured game.
I am actually in the process of becoming an instructor for natural game. I don’t even condone “negging” and actually recommend against it (I can tell you why if you want).
I wasn’t thinking only of negs, but also of freeze-outs, compliance frames (e.g. “introduce your friends, it’s the polite thing to do”), qualification hoops (“so what makes you so special?”), etc. Even the use of lock-in props can be tied to self-esteem (“you’re not a thief, right?”).
This is what I’m referring to, in that women with higher self-esteem have a lower tolerance for these things, when used by someone who lacks an adequate sense of humor or self-esteem of their own. Whereas women with lower self-esteem will feel more compelled to respond and jump through the hoops, not because of the guy, but because her own emotions give her no other choice—even if she then hates herself afterward for her actions.
Self-esteem of course is just a convenient buzzword; it may not precisely refer to the personality variable I’m describing. One author calls it “differentiation”—the ability to separate one’s self from the opinion of others, and notes that relationships between people with two widely-separated levels of differentiation won’t last long. I’ve experienced it myself, both from the high- and low-differentiation positions.
It’s technically possible to have low self-esteem in some ways, and yet still have high differentiation, so self-esteem is probably the wrong word to use. I just didn’t want, early in the discussion, to have to spell out the definition of another word when self-esteem was reasonably close.
Anyway, this is what I was trying to say: a low-differentiation PUA will get low-differentiation partners, because those are the only ones they’ll be able to hook and keep. And the field of game training has moved increasingly towards teaching things that increase differentiation: i.e., non-reactivity, lack of outcome dependence, strong personal frames, etc.
I agree with you.
Another personality variable that might come into play is a person’s self-monitoring behavior.
This is exactly what I am planning on teaching. I believe that structured game is mostly for people who already have these things, but are at a loss when it comes to what they need to do once in front of a woman. But the majority of people who need help lack skill in both areas.
Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Looks like a useful site, too.
Perhaps, but from a marketing perspective, even the guys who don’t have those things look for “magic pickup lines” first before considering improving themselves.
But this is wandering way off topic now, especially since we now basically agree. ;-)