“People who aren’t familiar with Derren Brown or other expert human-persuaders sometimes think this must have been very difficult for Yudkowsky to do or that there must have been some sort of special trick involved,”
amusing, as Derren Brown is a magician. When Derren Brown accomplishes a feat of amazing human psychology, he is usually just cleverly disguising a magic trick.
Indeed. Given a lack of transcripts being released, I give a reasonable amount of probability that there is a trick of some sort involved (there have been some proposals of what that might be, e.g. “this will get AI research to get more donations”), although I don’t think that would necessarily defeat the purpose of the trick: after all, the AI got out of the box either way!
As I understand it, that would violate the rules, and it would be appealing to the utility of the person playing the Gatekeeper, rather than the Gatekeeper. If there were actually an AI trying to get out, telling the Gatekeeper “You’re actually just pretending to be a Gatekeeper in an experiment to see whether an AI can get out of a box, and if the result of the test shows that the AI can get out, that will increase research funding” would probably not be effective.
Well, put it this way, if Eliezer had performed a trick which skirted the rules, he could hardly weigh in on this conversation and put us right without revealing that he had done so. Again, not saying he did, and my suggestion upthread was one of many that have been posted.
No, Derren Brown is a mentalist. He is either capable of psychologically manipulating people, or he’s a fraud. For instance, there’s a video of him doing an apparent cold reading on a woman, and the woman agrees that he’s right. One explanation presented on LW was that he actually made a bunch of obviously true statements, and swapped out the audio to make it seem like the woman was agreeing with a non-trivial cold reading. Swapping out audio is not a “magic trick”, it’s just plain fraud.
I’m fairly certain he is a fraud by your definition then. Magician’s often do these kind of things, and Derren Brown is a magician. He does not have access to secret powers others know not of, so for each trick think how someone else would replicate it. If you can’t think of an honest way, then it’s probably a trick.
That’s not to say some of his tricks aren’t done by known mental manipulation tricks (as far as I’m aware, hypnotists are reasonably genuine?) but if he is doing something that seems completely confounding, I am quite happy to guarantee that it is not a trick and not the awesome mind powers he has unlocked.
Put it this way. During the Russian roulette trick, do you think it likely that Channel 4 would have okayed it if there was the slightest possibility that he could actually kill himself?
Video trickery is not magic. There’s a difference between appearing to put a ball under a cup when you actually palmed it, versus actually putting the ball under the cup, turning off the camera, taking the ball out from under the cup, turning the camera back on, and then showing that there’s nothing under the cup. The former is being a magician, and the latter is being a fraud.
Another: suppose I ask an audience member to think of a number, and they say “217”. I say that I predicted that they would say “217“, and pull a piece of paper out of my pocket that says “The audience member will say ’217′ ”. If I used subliminal messages to prompt them to say “217”, that’s mentalism. If I managed to write “The audience member will say ’217′ ” on a piece of paper and slip it into my pocket without anyone noticing, that’s sleight of hand. If the audience member is actually in on it, that’s just bare deceit. That’s not to say that having confederates is illegitimate, but if the entirety of your trick consists of confederates, that’s not magic.
In some of Derren Brown’s tricks, mentalism, sleight of hand, and trickery are all credible hypotheses. But for many of them, there’s simply no way he could have done it through sleight of hand. Either he did it through mentalism, or he did it through trickery.
I don’t know what the details of the Russian roulette trick were, but my inclination is to doubt there was sleight-of-hand.
Well. While sleight of hand is a key tool in magic, traditionally confederates and even camera tricks have been too. David Blaine’s famous levitation trick, for instance, looks so impressive on TV because they cheated and made it look more impressive than it is.
Of course mentalism isn’t a “magic power.” Derren Brown is a stage magician, not a mystical sorceror! But he does use “mentalism” skills, especially cold reading. A lot of that is traditional magic too.
Simon Singh’s article is silly. Of course it’s misdirection when a magician tells you how he’s about to perform his trick. Of course Derren Brown implies his tricks are more real, more impressive and more noteworthy than they really are. Of course you can’t really psychologically manipulate people in the way Derren Brown claims to, any more than David Copperfield really can make the statue of Liberty disappear. That’s precisely why it’s an entertaining show—no-one would be impressed by a magician whose “tricks” were mundane things that people really could do.
Derren Brown says he uses a mixture of “magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship”. He never claims to have genuine magic powers.
Indeed, but if Derren Brown guesses your mobile number, it’s probably a “trick” rather than “mentalism”. ThisSpaceAvailable has claimed that he can manipulate people. I would argue that this is weakly true, and he uses it for the simpler tricks he performs, but for the really impressive effects he probably falls on traditional magic tricks most of the time. The card trick by Simon Singh demonstrates that: he hasn’t used mind manipulation to pick the cards, he’s used a standard card trick and dressed it with the language of “mentalism”.
Note that I make no claim that there is anything wrong with all this! But Derren Brown is trying to fool you, and that is to be remembered. He also does a similar thing to Penn and Teller, where he shows you how some of the trick is done but leaves the most “amazing” part hidden (I’m thinking of the horse racing episode, which was great, and the chess playing trick)
The explainxkcd.com explanation of the comic is quite balanced and readable.
It is, although I found this
“People who aren’t familiar with Derren Brown or other expert human-persuaders sometimes think this must have been very difficult for Yudkowsky to do or that there must have been some sort of special trick involved,”
amusing, as Derren Brown is a magician. When Derren Brown accomplishes a feat of amazing human psychology, he is usually just cleverly disguising a magic trick.
How do we know EY isn’t doing the same?
Indeed. Given a lack of transcripts being released, I give a reasonable amount of probability that there is a trick of some sort involved (there have been some proposals of what that might be, e.g. “this will get AI research to get more donations”), although I don’t think that would necessarily defeat the purpose of the trick: after all, the AI got out of the box either way!
As I understand it, that would violate the rules, and it would be appealing to the utility of the person playing the Gatekeeper, rather than the Gatekeeper. If there were actually an AI trying to get out, telling the Gatekeeper “You’re actually just pretending to be a Gatekeeper in an experiment to see whether an AI can get out of a box, and if the result of the test shows that the AI can get out, that will increase research funding” would probably not be effective.
You’re quite possibly right, and without access to the transcripts it’s all just speculation.
I don’t think we need the transcripts to discuss whether a hypothetical strategy would be allowed.
Well, put it this way, if Eliezer had performed a trick which skirted the rules, he could hardly weigh in on this conversation and put us right without revealing that he had done so. Again, not saying he did, and my suggestion upthread was one of many that have been posted.
No, Derren Brown is a mentalist. He is either capable of psychologically manipulating people, or he’s a fraud. For instance, there’s a video of him doing an apparent cold reading on a woman, and the woman agrees that he’s right. One explanation presented on LW was that he actually made a bunch of obviously true statements, and swapped out the audio to make it seem like the woman was agreeing with a non-trivial cold reading. Swapping out audio is not a “magic trick”, it’s just plain fraud.
I’m fairly certain he is a fraud by your definition then. Magician’s often do these kind of things, and Derren Brown is a magician. He does not have access to secret powers others know not of, so for each trick think how someone else would replicate it. If you can’t think of an honest way, then it’s probably a trick.
That’s not to say some of his tricks aren’t done by known mental manipulation tricks (as far as I’m aware, hypnotists are reasonably genuine?) but if he is doing something that seems completely confounding, I am quite happy to guarantee that it is not a trick and not the awesome mind powers he has unlocked.
Put it this way. During the Russian roulette trick, do you think it likely that Channel 4 would have okayed it if there was the slightest possibility that he could actually kill himself?
Video trickery is not magic. There’s a difference between appearing to put a ball under a cup when you actually palmed it, versus actually putting the ball under the cup, turning off the camera, taking the ball out from under the cup, turning the camera back on, and then showing that there’s nothing under the cup. The former is being a magician, and the latter is being a fraud.
Another: suppose I ask an audience member to think of a number, and they say “217”. I say that I predicted that they would say “217“, and pull a piece of paper out of my pocket that says “The audience member will say ’217′ ”. If I used subliminal messages to prompt them to say “217”, that’s mentalism. If I managed to write “The audience member will say ’217′ ” on a piece of paper and slip it into my pocket without anyone noticing, that’s sleight of hand. If the audience member is actually in on it, that’s just bare deceit. That’s not to say that having confederates is illegitimate, but if the entirety of your trick consists of confederates, that’s not magic.
In some of Derren Brown’s tricks, mentalism, sleight of hand, and trickery are all credible hypotheses. But for many of them, there’s simply no way he could have done it through sleight of hand. Either he did it through mentalism, or he did it through trickery.
I don’t know what the details of the Russian roulette trick were, but my inclination is to doubt there was sleight-of-hand.
Well. While sleight of hand is a key tool in magic, traditionally confederates and even camera tricks have been too. David Blaine’s famous levitation trick, for instance, looks so impressive on TV because they cheated and made it look more impressive than it is.
Mentalism as a magic power is not a real thing, sorry. It is a title magician’s sometimes took and take to make their act look different. http://simonsingh.net/media/articles/maths-and-science/spectacular-psychology-or-silly-psycho-babble/ Simon Singh on some of the tricks. http://www.secrets-explained.com/derren-brown has a list of some of the tricks he performs as well.
At least some of these “explanations” are exactly like the explanations Brown himself proffers, eg http://www.secrets-explained.com/derren-brown/card-suggestion
Well, that’s what I get for finding a source without checking it properly I suppose.
Of course mentalism isn’t a “magic power.” Derren Brown is a stage magician, not a mystical sorceror! But he does use “mentalism” skills, especially cold reading. A lot of that is traditional magic too.
Simon Singh’s article is silly. Of course it’s misdirection when a magician tells you how he’s about to perform his trick. Of course Derren Brown implies his tricks are more real, more impressive and more noteworthy than they really are. Of course you can’t really psychologically manipulate people in the way Derren Brown claims to, any more than David Copperfield really can make the statue of Liberty disappear. That’s precisely why it’s an entertaining show—no-one would be impressed by a magician whose “tricks” were mundane things that people really could do.
Derren Brown says he uses a mixture of “magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship”. He never claims to have genuine magic powers.
Indeed, but if Derren Brown guesses your mobile number, it’s probably a “trick” rather than “mentalism”. ThisSpaceAvailable has claimed that he can manipulate people. I would argue that this is weakly true, and he uses it for the simpler tricks he performs, but for the really impressive effects he probably falls on traditional magic tricks most of the time. The card trick by Simon Singh demonstrates that: he hasn’t used mind manipulation to pick the cards, he’s used a standard card trick and dressed it with the language of “mentalism”.
Note that I make no claim that there is anything wrong with all this! But Derren Brown is trying to fool you, and that is to be remembered. He also does a similar thing to Penn and Teller, where he shows you how some of the trick is done but leaves the most “amazing” part hidden (I’m thinking of the horse racing episode, which was great, and the chess playing trick)