On the other hand, sometimes cursory knowledge of a subject is sufficient for forming an accurate opinion about it. For example, I think my opinion about healing crystals is completely accurate, even though my knowledge about this practice is extremely rudimentary. Similarly, I think a cursory glance at the output of modern art is entirely sufficient for making correct sweeping judgments about it—and it’s hard to imagine how anyone could live in the modern society without having at least some exposure to it.
You’ve probably got an argument from physics about healing crystals.
However, in the case of modern art, you might contemplate people who think they know enough about science fiction to condemn it even though they know almost nothing about it.
Bruce Pollack, a contemporary abstract artist I like a lot. A little discussion of his work—the first picture is presumably something more current from the gallery where he was displayed—I think it’s the sort of modern art neither of us like.
Some people really don’t react well to the experimental nature of modern art. This trait has been shown to increase in the face of thinking about death, and individuals described as having a high need for structure display an amplified response under these conditions.
A lot of people in the West also don’t seem to grok that the aesthetic movements surrounding our own artistic traditions are not deeply-underlying human universals (representational art is very common, but not universal, and our focus on it is certainly not), or that there are entirely different approaches to the creation and function of art. The Modern and Postmodern movements in Western art are largely defined by their break from a lot of traditions.
A lot of people seem to also think “Art” means “highly-involved production of images for the sake of creating scarce aesthetic value” and don’t like anything that fails to conform to those rules, or appears to be “cheating” (Andy Warhol comes to mind). Which makes it really deliciously funny when such people consider Shakespeare’s works literary classics, or who just fail to grasp how many artists were not critical successes within their own time.
To the best of my knowledge, until modern art, all art showed a high mastery of craft. It might not be realistic representation, it might not be representation, it might not be pretty by Western standards, but no one could reasonably look at it and say “My five year old could do that”. Any exceptions?
To the best of my knowledge, until modern art, all art showed a high mastery of craft.
Do you really think that prior to the 20th century, there was no neglected, unremarkable, in-style but sub-par art, or art that might succeed on its own merits but failed to impress for other reasons, or art that just failed to ever catch on with those who had control over funding/critiquing/displaying it? Do you think that there was no prettying-up of mundane items, creating aesthetically-pleasing but not-terribly-formalized objects and images, no creative commission of form and image to medium for the sheer hell of it, regardless of what high society was upvoting as “the in thing” this year?
What you’re calling “art” is a small subset of the actual collage of human creative endeavor of art generally, and is better termed “fine art” (and in the context of this thread, you seem to be confining yourself to visual arts). Most of art made by humans throughout history and prehistory has been decorative and utilitarian in its impulses rather than created by highly-trained individuals working within a well-defined tradition and its strictures for the sole purpose of aesthetic expression—this is still the case today.
Modern Art itself is largely within the “fine art” category, and it includes all kinds of things you may be familiar with as “good art.” Could your five-year old do a van Gogh? A minimalist or Futurist building? A photorealistic painting? Salvador Dali? Matisse? Picasso? Monet? The buildings of Frank Lloyd Wright? Those things are Modern Art too.
Yes, some things labelled Modern Art look like a box of crayons exploded, or they’re almost absurdly simplistic, or they break from tradition but fail to do anything interesting with it. Especially given it’s a movement strongly influenced by breaks from tradition, one oughtn’t be surprised—and it’s easier than ever for a given work to find space, or be sent around on tour, or to be created essentially because someone wanted a thing there and didn’t have a lot of specifics, felt like leaving it up to the artist they hired. There’s more art, period, than there was in previous eras—more people making it, more people comissioning it, more people interested in displaying it, more people trying to get into it with varying degrees of talent, more people finding something they like and going “here, this is pretty awesome.”
And because you’re living here and now, you have a much higher chance of seeing something made recently that flops, or just doesn’t do it for you personally, from within that timeframe. The flops and failures and embarrassments of centuries past are, by and large, not widely-circulated today—unless they found a niche later on.
How many execrable pieces of old and even ancient art are you not seeing because time has marched on? How many things you find to be the height of aesthetic refinement couldn’t get an audience in their maker’s lifetime? How many have gone on to be considered classics despite their reception at the time?
And how many things that entirely meet the general definition of art are you not even considering because they don’t at least pretend to emanate from one of those establishments?
IAWYC, but I think this thread is quite a bit past due for “art” to be tabooed. Since the discussion is partially about how modern connotations of “art” effect people’s usage its hard to say exactly when the line was crossed, but IMHO
“What you’re calling “art” is a small subset of the actual collage of human creative endeavor of art generally, and is better termed “fine art” (and in the context of this thread, you seem to be confining yourself to visual arts). Most of art made by humans throughout history and prehistory has been decorative and utilitarian in its impulses rather than created by highly-trained individuals working within a well-defined tradition and its strictures for the sole purpose of aesthetic expression—this is still the case today.
Modern Art itself is largely within the “fine art” category, and it includes all kinds of things you may be familiar with as “good art.” Could your five-year old do a van Gogh? A minimalist or Futurist building? A photorealistic painting? Salvador Dali? Matisse? Picasso? Monet? The buildings of Frank Lloyd Wright? Those things are Modern Art too”
Fair enough. I was aiming to answer NancyLebovitz’ question in a way that didn’t amount to just “your definitions are broken” without really explaining why I think that.
Do you really think that prior to the 20th century, there was no neglected, unremarkable, in-style but sub-par art, or art that might succeed on its own merits but failed to impress for other reasons, or art that just failed to ever catch on with those who had control over funding/critiquing/displaying it? Do you think that there was no prettying-up of mundane items, creating aesthetically-pleasing but not-terribly-formalized objects and images, no creative commission of form and image to medium for the sheer hell of it, regardless of what high society was upvoting as “the in thing” this year?
I am sure that there was all of that, but having seen some works that I know were simply “churned out” to meet the trends of the time, were done by artists considered mediocre in their time (these pictures may not circulate around high class galleries, but people still own them,) or did not achieve popularity in their own time, I have to say that I haven’t found any less appealing than I find nearly all Modern Art.
I know that there are people who appreciate it much more than I do, and I’m sure that many of them can argue coherently for their appreciation, but to me, and I believe for a number of other people here as well, Modern Art appears to be a genre that does not demand redeeming qualities in exchange for success.
The Modern and Postmodern movements in Western art are largely defined by their break from a lot of traditions.
And that is precisely the problem with them. They have nothing to them except rebellion for its own sake.
A lot of people seem to also think “Art” means “highly-involved production of images for the sake of creating scarce aesthetic value” and don’t like anything that fails to conform to those rules
If “art” doesn’t create aesthetic value, what’s the point of making it.
They have nothing to them except rebellion for its own sake.
In modern art, there hasn’t even been any real rebellion in a very long time. What we see is a pretense of rebellion by doing the same old tired épater la bourgeoisie act that has lost all its shock value many decades ago, or “creative” breaking of long-gone traditional norms. At the same time, these people would never dream of touching any real taboos of the present day, and are bending over backwards to signal their unreserved allegiance to every single respectable high-status belief—and their professional world is a dreary pyramid of bureaucratic patronage that makes the bureaucracy of a typical government department look free-spirited in comparison.
To take only one illustrative example, even in Catholic Church—an institution that is often considered as the very epitome of hidebound reaction—a preference for traditional church art and architecture is likely to mark one as a contrarian these days.
And that is precisely the problem with them. They have nothing to them except rebellion for its own sake.
If “art” doesn’t create aesthetic value, what’s the point of making it.
We do not agree on these things, and I do not highly rate either of our odds of being able to make headway in this argument in a rational sense. So instead I will aim for transparency of content:
Bruce Pollack, a contemporary abstract artist I like a lot.
He appears to be an example of what I called a “good” modern artist, which is to say, he’s still worse that just about all pre-20th century western art.
I’m pretty sure he wasn’t saying that; he’s saying that prior to the 20′th century and the advent of “Modern Art,” hardly anybody was making art that he considers as poor as the works of even those he considers to be the best participating in the genre of Modern Art, which is not the same thing as the works of all artists who produce art in the present day.
I think the hatred of all modern art is such a common meme that there are a good many people who repeat it without knowing anything about modern art.
On the other hand, sometimes cursory knowledge of a subject is sufficient for forming an accurate opinion about it. For example, I think my opinion about healing crystals is completely accurate, even though my knowledge about this practice is extremely rudimentary. Similarly, I think a cursory glance at the output of modern art is entirely sufficient for making correct sweeping judgments about it—and it’s hard to imagine how anyone could live in the modern society without having at least some exposure to it.
You’ve probably got an argument from physics about healing crystals.
However, in the case of modern art, you might contemplate people who think they know enough about science fiction to condemn it even though they know almost nothing about it.
Bruce Pollack, a contemporary abstract artist I like a lot. A little discussion of his work—the first picture is presumably something more current from the gallery where he was displayed—I think it’s the sort of modern art neither of us like.
Some people really don’t react well to the experimental nature of modern art. This trait has been shown to increase in the face of thinking about death, and individuals described as having a high need for structure display an amplified response under these conditions.
source discusses the data as well as the limitations of its useful interpretation
A lot of people in the West also don’t seem to grok that the aesthetic movements surrounding our own artistic traditions are not deeply-underlying human universals (representational art is very common, but not universal, and our focus on it is certainly not), or that there are entirely different approaches to the creation and function of art. The Modern and Postmodern movements in Western art are largely defined by their break from a lot of traditions.
A lot of people seem to also think “Art” means “highly-involved production of images for the sake of creating scarce aesthetic value” and don’t like anything that fails to conform to those rules, or appears to be “cheating” (Andy Warhol comes to mind). Which makes it really deliciously funny when such people consider Shakespeare’s works literary classics, or who just fail to grasp how many artists were not critical successes within their own time.
To the best of my knowledge, until modern art, all art showed a high mastery of craft. It might not be realistic representation, it might not be representation, it might not be pretty by Western standards, but no one could reasonably look at it and say “My five year old could do that”. Any exceptions?
Or is that what you meant by “highly involved”?
Do you really think that prior to the 20th century, there was no neglected, unremarkable, in-style but sub-par art, or art that might succeed on its own merits but failed to impress for other reasons, or art that just failed to ever catch on with those who had control over funding/critiquing/displaying it? Do you think that there was no prettying-up of mundane items, creating aesthetically-pleasing but not-terribly-formalized objects and images, no creative commission of form and image to medium for the sheer hell of it, regardless of what high society was upvoting as “the in thing” this year?
What you’re calling “art” is a small subset of the actual collage of human creative endeavor of art generally, and is better termed “fine art” (and in the context of this thread, you seem to be confining yourself to visual arts). Most of art made by humans throughout history and prehistory has been decorative and utilitarian in its impulses rather than created by highly-trained individuals working within a well-defined tradition and its strictures for the sole purpose of aesthetic expression—this is still the case today.
Modern Art itself is largely within the “fine art” category, and it includes all kinds of things you may be familiar with as “good art.” Could your five-year old do a van Gogh? A minimalist or Futurist building? A photorealistic painting? Salvador Dali? Matisse? Picasso? Monet? The buildings of Frank Lloyd Wright? Those things are Modern Art too.
Yes, some things labelled Modern Art look like a box of crayons exploded, or they’re almost absurdly simplistic, or they break from tradition but fail to do anything interesting with it. Especially given it’s a movement strongly influenced by breaks from tradition, one oughtn’t be surprised—and it’s easier than ever for a given work to find space, or be sent around on tour, or to be created essentially because someone wanted a thing there and didn’t have a lot of specifics, felt like leaving it up to the artist they hired. There’s more art, period, than there was in previous eras—more people making it, more people comissioning it, more people interested in displaying it, more people trying to get into it with varying degrees of talent, more people finding something they like and going “here, this is pretty awesome.”
And because you’re living here and now, you have a much higher chance of seeing something made recently that flops, or just doesn’t do it for you personally, from within that timeframe. The flops and failures and embarrassments of centuries past are, by and large, not widely-circulated today—unless they found a niche later on.
How many execrable pieces of old and even ancient art are you not seeing because time has marched on? How many things you find to be the height of aesthetic refinement couldn’t get an audience in their maker’s lifetime? How many have gone on to be considered classics despite their reception at the time?
And how many things that entirely meet the general definition of art are you not even considering because they don’t at least pretend to emanate from one of those establishments?
IAWYC, but I think this thread is quite a bit past due for “art” to be tabooed. Since the discussion is partially about how modern connotations of “art” effect people’s usage its hard to say exactly when the line was crossed, but IMHO
is pretty clearly getting into arguing over definitions.
Fair enough. I was aiming to answer NancyLebovitz’ question in a way that didn’t amount to just “your definitions are broken” without really explaining why I think that.
I am sure that there was all of that, but having seen some works that I know were simply “churned out” to meet the trends of the time, were done by artists considered mediocre in their time (these pictures may not circulate around high class galleries, but people still own them,) or did not achieve popularity in their own time, I have to say that I haven’t found any less appealing than I find nearly all Modern Art.
I know that there are people who appreciate it much more than I do, and I’m sure that many of them can argue coherently for their appreciation, but to me, and I believe for a number of other people here as well, Modern Art appears to be a genre that does not demand redeeming qualities in exchange for success.
And that is precisely the problem with them. They have nothing to them except rebellion for its own sake.
If “art” doesn’t create aesthetic value, what’s the point of making it.
In modern art, there hasn’t even been any real rebellion in a very long time. What we see is a pretense of rebellion by doing the same old tired épater la bourgeoisie act that has lost all its shock value many decades ago, or “creative” breaking of long-gone traditional norms. At the same time, these people would never dream of touching any real taboos of the present day, and are bending over backwards to signal their unreserved allegiance to every single respectable high-status belief—and their professional world is a dreary pyramid of bureaucratic patronage that makes the bureaucracy of a typical government department look free-spirited in comparison.
To take only one illustrative example, even in Catholic Church—an institution that is often considered as the very epitome of hidebound reaction—a preference for traditional church art and architecture is likely to mark one as a contrarian these days.
We do not agree on these things, and I do not highly rate either of our odds of being able to make headway in this argument in a rational sense. So instead I will aim for transparency of content:
Boo thing you said. Yay thing I said.
Your turn.
He appears to be an example of what I called a “good” modern artist, which is to say, he’s still worse that just about all pre-20th century western art.
Wait. Huh? Pre 20th century? What about
Nikolai Fechin
Frank Frazetta
Andrew Jones
Geoffrey Mimms
James Gurney
There are lots of guys making art these days. You really don’t like any of them?
I’m pretty sure he wasn’t saying that; he’s saying that prior to the 20′th century and the advent of “Modern Art,” hardly anybody was making art that he considers as poor as the works of even those he considers to be the best participating in the genre of Modern Art, which is not the same thing as the works of all artists who produce art in the present day.
What Desrtopa said.