What gets me the most about the story is how vague the Future!Human ideology is. Eating babies is bad… especially if they suffer… but destroying a whole culture to remove their suffering is bad… and we’d never want anyone to do that to us… ‘cause… y’know, just ’cause.
At first they seem to be all humanitarians and inclusivists. They also seem to be highly rational, and attempting to describe and account for all emotional and cultural bias in their decision-making argument. They’re authoritarian… because that’s what works best… but the leaders always try to get the feel of what the majority thinks… and the people who are there to make sure things stay sane and rational are not actually leaders… but still have extensive moral authority.
People raise objections to humans reforming the Baby-eaters, and they raise objections to having us reformed by the Superhappies, but (in stark contrast to the excessive self-analysis everywhere else) nobody really gives a clear reason other than “it’s just bad”. It’s like they’re afraid to even put their own beliefs on the table, in the form of “we hold these truths to be self-evident, and the majority of us will act on them. we are willing to accept that some or all of them may be wrong, but you will have to convince each of us separately”. Or possibly the author is afraid of making the humans as dogmatic as the aliens, so instead makes them all wishy-washy.
The words “freedom of self-determiantion” never appear (except in the comments). The mentions of non-consensual sex and of races being mixed together gives an impression that the Future!Humans value peace and getting along higher than personal freedom, in which case it’s hard to see why the Superhappy proposal is so bad for them.
So the moral of the story is, “sure, maybe humans are capable of killing millions of their own kind in the name of vague ideology, but at least we’re not baby-eaters or writhing masses of tentacles that do nothing but reproduce”. Uplifting, I guess.
Does the notion of future humans being irrational, self-deluded hypocrites really strike you as so implausible? Just because they think they’re smarter than our generation doesn’t mean they actually are.
This is a good comment. I don’t understand why this choice was made, or why Mr. Yudkowsky—presumably—thinks that it was the right choice to make. The Superhappy proposal was reasonable, and only instinctive disgust at the idea of eating babies—even non-sentient ones—prevented the acceptance of their offer. (Or was it that humans want to keep suffering, because it’s somehow intrinsic to “being human”, which is important because… uh… because...) For that small sacrifice, a paradise could have been created. Instead, billions die and humans remain unhappy sufferers.
Though you seem to implicitly disagree, vanishingly few “moral systems” hold that pleasure is the ultimate “good,” and most people engaged in the pursuit of pleasure would not introspect on their own behavior as “good/moral.” At best, they would tend to consider themselves selfishly (chaotic?) neutral.
If you question why, in this exploration of Blue/Orange morality, Future Humanity resists the concept of removal of pain, then you missed THE very critical concept of the piece -
“For that terrible winnowing was the central truth of life, after all.”
The fundamental essence of the Babyeaters is tied to their evolutionary origins as a people that eat babies. The whole story is a fantastic exploration on how the biological and ecological underpinnings of a species distinctly shape their social thought processes and therefore the evolution of their moral and social systems.
It’s explained very clearly how the BE’s view the self sacrifice of their behavior as THE ultimate good.
Similarly, the unified thought/data/DNA system (there are bacteria and virii that seem to be taking this path) of the SH’s makes their path to complete empathy and their resulting behavior entirely logical. It’s an application of “Pure Harmony”—as beings of complete empathy, they would rather alter their racial essence than experience/perceive the suffering en masse of others. Similarly, any species that does NOT eliminate suffering in any and all forms is barbaric – if for nothing else because they inherently do not sense the pain of others.
What isn’t explained is that pain is as essential to our understanding of the world, and therefore our humanity, as the winnowing/sacrifice is to the BE’s. Since we possess this dichotomy between neurological and DNA structures, empathy is only possible through mirroring—the PERSONAL experience of pain is what allows for comprehension, even though it may be considered “uncomfortable.” The natural world makes for an uncaring universe, and having a keen sense of pain has enabled us to advance through our challenges. Removing pain is effectively removing our alignment and awareness of the indifference of the universe around us—a fatal mistake.
At the same time, individuality is a prized value of humanity, in contrast to BOTH the BE’s and SH’s. The idea that I should be forced to abandon all sense of individuality (the essence of complete empathy) is anathematic to my very humanity. I don’t exist to experience pleasure or pain, I exist to be myself.
See the matter of the pie. Xannon’s proposal is identical to the Super Happies’; meta-ethical “fairness”. Regardless of how you might feel about a Super Happy future, the Suffering Rapists hated it. Rational agents will choose the option which maximizes expected utility, accepting the deal didn’t maximise expected utility, so the deal was rejected. That’s all there is to it.
What gets me the most about the story is how vague the Future!Human ideology is. Eating babies is bad… especially if they suffer… but destroying a whole culture to remove their suffering is bad… and we’d never want anyone to do that to us… ‘cause… y’know, just ’cause.
At first they seem to be all humanitarians and inclusivists. They also seem to be highly rational, and attempting to describe and account for all emotional and cultural bias in their decision-making argument. They’re authoritarian… because that’s what works best… but the leaders always try to get the feel of what the majority thinks… and the people who are there to make sure things stay sane and rational are not actually leaders… but still have extensive moral authority.
People raise objections to humans reforming the Baby-eaters, and they raise objections to having us reformed by the Superhappies, but (in stark contrast to the excessive self-analysis everywhere else) nobody really gives a clear reason other than “it’s just bad”. It’s like they’re afraid to even put their own beliefs on the table, in the form of “we hold these truths to be self-evident, and the majority of us will act on them. we are willing to accept that some or all of them may be wrong, but you will have to convince each of us separately”. Or possibly the author is afraid of making the humans as dogmatic as the aliens, so instead makes them all wishy-washy.
The words “freedom of self-determiantion” never appear (except in the comments). The mentions of non-consensual sex and of races being mixed together gives an impression that the Future!Humans value peace and getting along higher than personal freedom, in which case it’s hard to see why the Superhappy proposal is so bad for them.
So the moral of the story is, “sure, maybe humans are capable of killing millions of their own kind in the name of vague ideology, but at least we’re not baby-eaters or writhing masses of tentacles that do nothing but reproduce”. Uplifting, I guess.
Does the notion of future humans being irrational, self-deluded hypocrites really strike you as so implausible? Just because they think they’re smarter than our generation doesn’t mean they actually are.
This is a good comment. I don’t understand why this choice was made, or why Mr. Yudkowsky—presumably—thinks that it was the right choice to make. The Superhappy proposal was reasonable, and only instinctive disgust at the idea of eating babies—even non-sentient ones—prevented the acceptance of their offer. (Or was it that humans want to keep suffering, because it’s somehow intrinsic to “being human”, which is important because… uh… because...) For that small sacrifice, a paradise could have been created. Instead, billions die and humans remain unhappy sufferers.
Very disappointing.
Though you seem to implicitly disagree, vanishingly few “moral systems” hold that pleasure is the ultimate “good,” and most people engaged in the pursuit of pleasure would not introspect on their own behavior as “good/moral.” At best, they would tend to consider themselves selfishly (chaotic?) neutral.
If you question why, in this exploration of Blue/Orange morality, Future Humanity resists the concept of removal of pain, then you missed THE very critical concept of the piece - “For that terrible winnowing was the central truth of life, after all.”
The fundamental essence of the Babyeaters is tied to their evolutionary origins as a people that eat babies. The whole story is a fantastic exploration on how the biological and ecological underpinnings of a species distinctly shape their social thought processes and therefore the evolution of their moral and social systems. It’s explained very clearly how the BE’s view the self sacrifice of their behavior as THE ultimate good.
Similarly, the unified thought/data/DNA system (there are bacteria and virii that seem to be taking this path) of the SH’s makes their path to complete empathy and their resulting behavior entirely logical. It’s an application of “Pure Harmony”—as beings of complete empathy, they would rather alter their racial essence than experience/perceive the suffering en masse of others. Similarly, any species that does NOT eliminate suffering in any and all forms is barbaric – if for nothing else because they inherently do not sense the pain of others.
What isn’t explained is that pain is as essential to our understanding of the world, and therefore our humanity, as the winnowing/sacrifice is to the BE’s. Since we possess this dichotomy between neurological and DNA structures, empathy is only possible through mirroring—the PERSONAL experience of pain is what allows for comprehension, even though it may be considered “uncomfortable.” The natural world makes for an uncaring universe, and having a keen sense of pain has enabled us to advance through our challenges. Removing pain is effectively removing our alignment and awareness of the indifference of the universe around us—a fatal mistake. At the same time, individuality is a prized value of humanity, in contrast to BOTH the BE’s and SH’s. The idea that I should be forced to abandon all sense of individuality (the essence of complete empathy) is anathematic to my very humanity. I don’t exist to experience pleasure or pain, I exist to be myself.
See the matter of the pie. Xannon’s proposal is identical to the Super Happies’; meta-ethical “fairness”. Regardless of how you might feel about a Super Happy future, the Suffering Rapists hated it. Rational agents will choose the option which maximizes expected utility, accepting the deal didn’t maximise expected utility, so the deal was rejected. That’s all there is to it.