This is a good comment. I don’t understand why this choice was made, or why Mr. Yudkowsky—presumably—thinks that it was the right choice to make. The Superhappy proposal was reasonable, and only instinctive disgust at the idea of eating babies—even non-sentient ones—prevented the acceptance of their offer. (Or was it that humans want to keep suffering, because it’s somehow intrinsic to “being human”, which is important because… uh… because...) For that small sacrifice, a paradise could have been created. Instead, billions die and humans remain unhappy sufferers.
Though you seem to implicitly disagree, vanishingly few “moral systems” hold that pleasure is the ultimate “good,” and most people engaged in the pursuit of pleasure would not introspect on their own behavior as “good/moral.” At best, they would tend to consider themselves selfishly (chaotic?) neutral.
If you question why, in this exploration of Blue/Orange morality, Future Humanity resists the concept of removal of pain, then you missed THE very critical concept of the piece -
“For that terrible winnowing was the central truth of life, after all.”
The fundamental essence of the Babyeaters is tied to their evolutionary origins as a people that eat babies. The whole story is a fantastic exploration on how the biological and ecological underpinnings of a species distinctly shape their social thought processes and therefore the evolution of their moral and social systems.
It’s explained very clearly how the BE’s view the self sacrifice of their behavior as THE ultimate good.
Similarly, the unified thought/data/DNA system (there are bacteria and virii that seem to be taking this path) of the SH’s makes their path to complete empathy and their resulting behavior entirely logical. It’s an application of “Pure Harmony”—as beings of complete empathy, they would rather alter their racial essence than experience/perceive the suffering en masse of others. Similarly, any species that does NOT eliminate suffering in any and all forms is barbaric – if for nothing else because they inherently do not sense the pain of others.
What isn’t explained is that pain is as essential to our understanding of the world, and therefore our humanity, as the winnowing/sacrifice is to the BE’s. Since we possess this dichotomy between neurological and DNA structures, empathy is only possible through mirroring—the PERSONAL experience of pain is what allows for comprehension, even though it may be considered “uncomfortable.” The natural world makes for an uncaring universe, and having a keen sense of pain has enabled us to advance through our challenges. Removing pain is effectively removing our alignment and awareness of the indifference of the universe around us—a fatal mistake.
At the same time, individuality is a prized value of humanity, in contrast to BOTH the BE’s and SH’s. The idea that I should be forced to abandon all sense of individuality (the essence of complete empathy) is anathematic to my very humanity. I don’t exist to experience pleasure or pain, I exist to be myself.
See the matter of the pie. Xannon’s proposal is identical to the Super Happies’; meta-ethical “fairness”. Regardless of how you might feel about a Super Happy future, the Suffering Rapists hated it. Rational agents will choose the option which maximizes expected utility, accepting the deal didn’t maximise expected utility, so the deal was rejected. That’s all there is to it.
This is a good comment. I don’t understand why this choice was made, or why Mr. Yudkowsky—presumably—thinks that it was the right choice to make. The Superhappy proposal was reasonable, and only instinctive disgust at the idea of eating babies—even non-sentient ones—prevented the acceptance of their offer. (Or was it that humans want to keep suffering, because it’s somehow intrinsic to “being human”, which is important because… uh… because...) For that small sacrifice, a paradise could have been created. Instead, billions die and humans remain unhappy sufferers.
Very disappointing.
Though you seem to implicitly disagree, vanishingly few “moral systems” hold that pleasure is the ultimate “good,” and most people engaged in the pursuit of pleasure would not introspect on their own behavior as “good/moral.” At best, they would tend to consider themselves selfishly (chaotic?) neutral.
If you question why, in this exploration of Blue/Orange morality, Future Humanity resists the concept of removal of pain, then you missed THE very critical concept of the piece - “For that terrible winnowing was the central truth of life, after all.”
The fundamental essence of the Babyeaters is tied to their evolutionary origins as a people that eat babies. The whole story is a fantastic exploration on how the biological and ecological underpinnings of a species distinctly shape their social thought processes and therefore the evolution of their moral and social systems. It’s explained very clearly how the BE’s view the self sacrifice of their behavior as THE ultimate good.
Similarly, the unified thought/data/DNA system (there are bacteria and virii that seem to be taking this path) of the SH’s makes their path to complete empathy and their resulting behavior entirely logical. It’s an application of “Pure Harmony”—as beings of complete empathy, they would rather alter their racial essence than experience/perceive the suffering en masse of others. Similarly, any species that does NOT eliminate suffering in any and all forms is barbaric – if for nothing else because they inherently do not sense the pain of others.
What isn’t explained is that pain is as essential to our understanding of the world, and therefore our humanity, as the winnowing/sacrifice is to the BE’s. Since we possess this dichotomy between neurological and DNA structures, empathy is only possible through mirroring—the PERSONAL experience of pain is what allows for comprehension, even though it may be considered “uncomfortable.” The natural world makes for an uncaring universe, and having a keen sense of pain has enabled us to advance through our challenges. Removing pain is effectively removing our alignment and awareness of the indifference of the universe around us—a fatal mistake. At the same time, individuality is a prized value of humanity, in contrast to BOTH the BE’s and SH’s. The idea that I should be forced to abandon all sense of individuality (the essence of complete empathy) is anathematic to my very humanity. I don’t exist to experience pleasure or pain, I exist to be myself.
See the matter of the pie. Xannon’s proposal is identical to the Super Happies’; meta-ethical “fairness”. Regardless of how you might feel about a Super Happy future, the Suffering Rapists hated it. Rational agents will choose the option which maximizes expected utility, accepting the deal didn’t maximise expected utility, so the deal was rejected. That’s all there is to it.