I really liked this chapter. I’ve always liked the HPMOR version of Draco, and now I like the HPMOR version of Lucius as well. It’s fun to watch smart competent people being awesome at each other.
I wish the chapters with girls in them could be like this too.
I think this is the heart of feminist complaints about this story. Yes, the female characters are honest, and levelheaded, and moral, and quite a bit more realistic than male characters. Yes, the male characters have massive, gaping flaws in their character, and if you tried to have a conversation with them in the real world they would appear unbearably pompous. Yes, clever repartee does not replace genuine kindness. I agree with all that.
But the thing is, this fic (on its surface) doesn’t value kindness and morality nearly as much as suave, articulate word-poker and beautifully intricate schemes and counter-schemes and “I know that you know that I know...” insanity. I think you’re going to get people accusing you of sexism even if you provide your female characters with traits that are valued and truly matter in the real world, as long as you still hold back the traits that are valued in-story.
In the original Harry Potter, Hermione was quite a bit more immature in her first year than in HPMOR—but the backbone of HP was bold derring-do and wandsmanship and remembering the right spell, and she (and McGonagall and Ginny) was essential in that environment. Intricate conversations and ingenious plots like this are the backbone of HPMOR, and we don’t see any women involved there. That’s what people are complaining about, I think.
I predict that if Hermione’s death had come at the end of a long, complicated plot/investigation carried out by her, there would be far fewer complaints. As it is, she did not win anything other than Harry’s increased resolve—didn’t reveal any schemes, didn’t execute any of her own, didn’t discover any MacGuffins (as far as I know).
The character who seems to be the best response to this, and whom I hope we will see again shortly, is Amelia Bones. She seems to kick just as much ass as Moody, without the significant aid of a literally all-seeing eye. Watching her Azkaban defense was quite impressive, and I hope that the hints of “Bones” in this chapter mean we’ll see her in action again, and not just as a potential signatory.
I would have loved to read a counterfactual HPMOR with Bones in the role of McGonagall (or McGonagall with the personality of Bones). It’s true that her personality makes more sense in an Auror than a teacher, and that means we don’t get to see her very much. But then again, virtually every major male authority figure in Hogwarts looks like he should belong in an elite war chamber rather than a classroom. Seriously, what are these people doing running a boarding school?
Hogwarts is the entire British magical education system (with the exception of some private tutors). Controlling education is not optional for people who want to control a country. The fact that education is all centralized the most powerful fortress just makes it even more important to control.
Hogwarts is the entire British magical education system (with the exception of some private tutors).
Do we know this for a fact?
Objections:
Going to Hogwarts is prestigious, meaning there must be lower-status options available.
Hogwarts regularly hires apparently British replacement teachers, most of them with at least the appearance of educational experience. It is improbable that said experience comes exclusively from abroad or from being a private tutor.
There are too few pupils at Hogwarts to account for the entire underage wizarding population, given the size of the overall wizarding population and assuming the majority of wizards’ children are also wizards (not to mention having to factor in Muggleborns).
It seems improbable that the booming school equipment business of Diagon Alley survives on one school’s worth of customers, especially if most of them only shop once a year.
If most of the population of magical Britain have been through the same school, we would expect an extremely high degree of social interconnectedness, with most people knowing everyone of the same age at least by sight. There’s no evidence of this.
On the other hand,
It is implied that letters coming on one’s 11th birthday can only come from Hogwarts.
If one is expelled from Hogwarts, one is forbidden from practising further magic altogether.
No other British schools, or pupils or graduates thereof, are ever mentioned in canon that I can remember.
Canon is fairly clear that Hogwarts is the only game in Britain. It also leads to glaring inconsistencies in scale which you just pointed out. (Rowling originally said that Hogwarts had about 700 students, and then fans started pointing out that that was wildly inconsistent with the school as she described it. And even that’s too small to make things really work).
But the evidence, from HP7 (page 210 of my first-run American hardback copy):
Lupin is talking about Voldemort’s takeover of Wizarding society, to Harry and the others.
“Attendance is now compulsory for every young witch and wizard,” he replied. “That was announced yesterday. It’s a change, because it was never obligatory before. Of course, nearly every witch and wizard in Britain has been educated at Hogwarts, but their parents had the right to teach them at home or send them abroad if they preferred. This way, Voldemort will have the whole Wizarding population under his eye from a young age.”
“Most wizards” in Britain were educated at Hogwarts, and the exceptions were homeschooled or sent abroad. It’s really hard to read that to imply that there’s another British wizarding school anywhere.
It seems improbable that the booming school equipment business of Diagon Alley survives on one school’s worth of customers, especially if most of them only shop once a year.
It didn’t seem to me there were so much school equipment business. If you look at the shops Harry went to the first year, it’s a dress shop, a book shop, a wand shop, a potion ingredient shop, a broomstick shop, a pet shop, … none of them sound dedicated to school equipment. They probably have a lot of school equipment in stock/display during august, like supermarkets do here too, but continue selling their goods to adult wizards the rest of the time.
The rest of your objections do hold, but I just fold it into “canon HP isn’t very consistent” suspension of disbelief… of course, it makes things tougher for EY when he’s making a consistent version of it. But that’s part of what makes HPMOR funny/interesting.
I took the implication from reading the books that Rowling had different ideas at different times whether there were intended to be multiple schools of magic in Britain or not. It was referred to in the beginning as the “best” school in Britain, but by the end of the series, the Voldemort-run Ministry instituted mandatory Hogwarts attendance for all youth, and a character remarked that parents had at least had the option of homeschooling their children before.
If one is expelled from Hogwarts, one is forbidden from practising further magic altogether.
It doesn’t seem too implausible for them to have a law saying something along the lines of “a person who has been expelled from one magical school may not be admitted to any other magical school”.
The Magical economy generally doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense. In canon it seems like every witch/wizard works for the Ministry, Hogwarts, or for a small restaurant or shop. I think wizards can pretty much conjure every basic material into existence except food and gold. That does leave an interesting question of where magical Britain is getting its food and gold from. There might be some witch/wizard farmers out there that we never hear about, or they could be just stealing food from muggles. Maybe the ministry sanctions some small scale trade between the magic/muggle world?
well…
In cannon, the weaselys have a garden...and you can enlarge food with magic, though rowling never specifies what the multiplicative limit is. (it is STRONGLY implied there is one, though. seventh book.)
So a little bit of gardening by the women goes a long way, though it may only be poor families that actually resort to it.
On the topic of illogical career paths, Bones has a real job that requires being a very good auror, rather than being an errand-boy for Dumbledore, as Moody seems to be.
And as for “what are these people doing running a boarding school”, they run a school based on reward and (mostly) punishment, rather than the growth of their pupils; they teach a rigid curriculum that seems to have remained unchanged for centuries, in spite of advances in both the magical and muggle worlds; and they socially condition people into narrow roles, largely defined by negative attitudes towards others, based solely on the House a piece of fabric sorts them into.
they teach a rigid curriculum that seems to have remained unchanged for centuries, in spite of advances in both the magical and muggle worlds
As a point of accuracy, it’s been stated a couple of times that Hogwarts is meant to follow the Ministry-mandated curriculum, so this one is not entirely “these people”’s fault.
Draco seems to believe that Hogwarts is an impregnable fortress, a secure base for whatever power Dumbledore wants to project. Headmaster of Hogwarts appears to be a title awarded by the Wizengamot, which also elects the Chief Warlock, and Draco regards it as a significant increment to the power of the Chief Warlock. Its function as a boarding school may be secondary and incidental. :)
I predict that if Hermione’s death had come at the end of a long, complicated plot/investigation carried out by her, there would be far fewer complaints. As it is, she did not win anything other than Harry’s increased resolve—didn’t reveal any schemes, didn’t execute any of her own, didn’t discover any MacGuffins (as far as I know).
Vanishingly low-confidence idea: Hermione realized that the Philosopher’s Stone is hidden at Hogwarts, went to retrieve it, and somehow in there the troll got loose.
Evidence against: canonically, the stone troll and the bathroom troll were distinct, Snape went to guard the third floor corridor, the troll was pretty deep within the gauntlet in canon, meaning that if it was placed similarly in methods, something complicated happened off screen, and Dumbledore’s wards over the corridor would doubtless have alerted him. And it wouldn’t be much of a victory for Hermione, since the stone’s actual canon protection was the mirror of Erised charmed to give the stone only to someone who wanted it, but not to use it, and Hermione was seeking the stone to help pay off Harry’s debt.
Evidence for: In Chamber of Secrets, Hermione manages to convey information in spite of being petrified, which would probably have been found sooner had Harry/Ron been more observant. And even then, she managed to get petrified rather than killed, since she knew what to expect. And in Philosopher’s Stone, she was the one who figured out the stone was at Hogwarts (though, admitedly this wouldn’t have been as likely without Hagrid’s extremely loose tongue, but in MoR she was researching the stone last we saw of her).
So yeah, I could see Hermione having accomplished something off screen between chapter 87 and 89, but for now I’ll keep my confidence of this happening below 50% barring stronger evidence.
But the thing is, this fic (on its surface) doesn’t value kindness and morality nearly as much as suave, articulate word-poker and beautifully intricate schemes and counter-schemes
Harry says:
“Don’t worry, Headmaster,” said the boy. “I haven’t gotten my wires
crossed. I know that I’m supposed to learn goodness from Hermione and
Fawkes, not from Professor Quirrell and you.
You learn goodness from Hermione, and how to kill things efficiently from Quirrell. Who do you think is being valued here?
What the fic values above all else is a love and respect for life. Even the child who wants a sparkly throne and minions feels that way. Especially that child. All the various high powered smarty pantsing is entertainment and eye candy, not the core values of the fan fic. Not by a wide margin.
These “I’m offended” isms seem to be a very effective way to entirely miss the point of what someone else is saying, as you root about for the offensive kernel. It’s a fine hobby. You need never fail; find a difference and spin it negatively. Ta da! I’m offended! Whee! What fun!
Maybe I should try it. I suppose I could get my undies in a bunch over the misandrism in HPMOR, since as even you say
the female characters are honest, and levelheaded, and moral,
Huff huff huff. Stomp stomp stomp. I’m so offended.
Hmmm, just didn’t work for me. I’m not offended, and don’t want to be. Instead of getting huffy about how wonderful Hermione is portrayed relative to males in the story, I’d rather just love the Hermione character even though she doesn’t have the same genitalia that I do. Imagine that.
I think it’s sad that people are trapped in this ideology, looking for ways to be offended, casting a pall over everything they see.
I think you misunderstood. I wasn’t claiming to be offended myself, I was trying to get at the cause of people’s emotional reactions. Whether or not you believe those emotions are justified, they are almost always triggered by something.
I also specified that HPMOR values wit and scheming on its surface—that is, the scheming is what provides almost all the entertainment value and keeps people in their chairs long enough to hear the deeper ideology. What do we want from characters in a story at their most basic level? We want to have fun watching them. That’s why most people read stories, and it’s why most people read HPMOR. And the ones who are the most fun to watch are the male characters.
I didn’t claim this was intentional, nor that it was wrong, just that it was probably the cause of feminist complaints. It was in part an answer to “But the female characters are good people”. Being a good person is not always the same as being good in the story. In Disney movies, you have to be a wide-eyed dreamer. In Tarantino movies you have to be a stone-cold killing machine. In HPMOR (and Death Note) you have to be a hyperintelligent byzantine plotter. And then comes the ideology.
This may not have been put in the most diplomatic way possible, but I think the last sentence has merit. My first reaction upon reading the chapter was “wow, Harry did a masterful job of manipulating the hell out of the Malfoys” (not that the manipulation will be to the Malfoy’s detriment, but that’s beside the point). Then I find out that people are impressed with the competence of Lucius Malfoy and therefore sexism? I suppose it was good that Lucius wasn’t blinded by irrational hatred or greed, but that’s an awfully low bar to be setting for characters that impress you. He walked in with one plan that Harry saw through in a second.
I anticipate a few possibly short scenes where Harry does basically the same thing and manipulates Bones and Madam Longbottom into supporting him as well. If this scene is being held as evidence of sexism, the laws of evidence tell me those scenes should be held as evidence against, but somehow I don’t see it happening that way.
That said, if other people can see what they’re looking for then so can I, but that’s my take.
I anticipate a few possibly short scenes where Harry does basically the same thing and manipulates Bones and Madam Longbottom into supporting him as well. If this scene is being held as evidence of sexism, the laws of evidence tell me those scenes should be held as evidence against, but somehow I don’t see it happening that way.
Actually, the law is that the average scene that isn’t Harry manipulating Lucius must be evidence against sexism, not that any such scene is evidence against sexism. Many of the possible scenes in the set {Harry doesn’t manipulate Lucius} are sexist.
If this scene is being held as evidence of sexism, the laws of evidence tell me those scenes should be held as evidence against, but somehow I don’t see it happening that way.
Heads I’m offended. Tails I’m offended. As we used to say at the college poker game “Muahahahaha, I can’t lose!”
I really liked this chapter. I’ve always liked the HPMOR version of Draco, and now I like the HPMOR version of Lucius as well. It’s fun to watch smart competent people being awesome at each other.
I wish the chapters with girls in them could be like this too.
I think this is the heart of feminist complaints about this story. Yes, the female characters are honest, and levelheaded, and moral, and quite a bit more realistic than male characters. Yes, the male characters have massive, gaping flaws in their character, and if you tried to have a conversation with them in the real world they would appear unbearably pompous. Yes, clever repartee does not replace genuine kindness. I agree with all that.
But the thing is, this fic (on its surface) doesn’t value kindness and morality nearly as much as suave, articulate word-poker and beautifully intricate schemes and counter-schemes and “I know that you know that I know...” insanity. I think you’re going to get people accusing you of sexism even if you provide your female characters with traits that are valued and truly matter in the real world, as long as you still hold back the traits that are valued in-story.
In the original Harry Potter, Hermione was quite a bit more immature in her first year than in HPMOR—but the backbone of HP was bold derring-do and wandsmanship and remembering the right spell, and she (and McGonagall and Ginny) was essential in that environment. Intricate conversations and ingenious plots like this are the backbone of HPMOR, and we don’t see any women involved there. That’s what people are complaining about, I think.
I predict that if Hermione’s death had come at the end of a long, complicated plot/investigation carried out by her, there would be far fewer complaints. As it is, she did not win anything other than Harry’s increased resolve—didn’t reveal any schemes, didn’t execute any of her own, didn’t discover any MacGuffins (as far as I know).
The character who seems to be the best response to this, and whom I hope we will see again shortly, is Amelia Bones. She seems to kick just as much ass as Moody, without the significant aid of a literally all-seeing eye. Watching her Azkaban defense was quite impressive, and I hope that the hints of “Bones” in this chapter mean we’ll see her in action again, and not just as a potential signatory.
I would have loved to read a counterfactual HPMOR with Bones in the role of McGonagall (or McGonagall with the personality of Bones). It’s true that her personality makes more sense in an Auror than a teacher, and that means we don’t get to see her very much. But then again, virtually every major male authority figure in Hogwarts looks like he should belong in an elite war chamber rather than a classroom. Seriously, what are these people doing running a boarding school?
Hogwarts is the entire British magical education system (with the exception of some private tutors). Controlling education is not optional for people who want to control a country. The fact that education is all centralized the most powerful fortress just makes it even more important to control.
Do we know this for a fact?
Objections:
Going to Hogwarts is prestigious, meaning there must be lower-status options available.
Hogwarts regularly hires apparently British replacement teachers, most of them with at least the appearance of educational experience. It is improbable that said experience comes exclusively from abroad or from being a private tutor.
There are too few pupils at Hogwarts to account for the entire underage wizarding population, given the size of the overall wizarding population and assuming the majority of wizards’ children are also wizards (not to mention having to factor in Muggleborns).
It seems improbable that the booming school equipment business of Diagon Alley survives on one school’s worth of customers, especially if most of them only shop once a year.
If most of the population of magical Britain have been through the same school, we would expect an extremely high degree of social interconnectedness, with most people knowing everyone of the same age at least by sight. There’s no evidence of this.
On the other hand,
It is implied that letters coming on one’s 11th birthday can only come from Hogwarts.
If one is expelled from Hogwarts, one is forbidden from practising further magic altogether.
No other British schools, or pupils or graduates thereof, are ever mentioned in canon that I can remember.
Canon is fairly clear that Hogwarts is the only game in Britain. It also leads to glaring inconsistencies in scale which you just pointed out. (Rowling originally said that Hogwarts had about 700 students, and then fans started pointing out that that was wildly inconsistent with the school as she described it. And even that’s too small to make things really work).
But the evidence, from HP7 (page 210 of my first-run American hardback copy):
Lupin is talking about Voldemort’s takeover of Wizarding society, to Harry and the others.
“Most wizards” in Britain were educated at Hogwarts, and the exceptions were homeschooled or sent abroad. It’s really hard to read that to imply that there’s another British wizarding school anywhere.
It didn’t seem to me there were so much school equipment business. If you look at the shops Harry went to the first year, it’s a dress shop, a book shop, a wand shop, a potion ingredient shop, a broomstick shop, a pet shop, … none of them sound dedicated to school equipment. They probably have a lot of school equipment in stock/display during august, like supermarkets do here too, but continue selling their goods to adult wizards the rest of the time.
The rest of your objections do hold, but I just fold it into “canon HP isn’t very consistent” suspension of disbelief… of course, it makes things tougher for EY when he’s making a consistent version of it. But that’s part of what makes HPMOR funny/interesting.
I took the implication from reading the books that Rowling had different ideas at different times whether there were intended to be multiple schools of magic in Britain or not. It was referred to in the beginning as the “best” school in Britain, but by the end of the series, the Voldemort-run Ministry instituted mandatory Hogwarts attendance for all youth, and a character remarked that parents had at least had the option of homeschooling their children before.
It doesn’t seem too implausible for them to have a law saying something along the lines of “a person who has been expelled from one magical school may not be admitted to any other magical school”.
The Magical economy generally doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense. In canon it seems like every witch/wizard works for the Ministry, Hogwarts, or for a small restaurant or shop. I think wizards can pretty much conjure every basic material into existence except food and gold. That does leave an interesting question of where magical Britain is getting its food and gold from. There might be some witch/wizard farmers out there that we never hear about, or they could be just stealing food from muggles. Maybe the ministry sanctions some small scale trade between the magic/muggle world?
well… In cannon, the weaselys have a garden...and you can enlarge food with magic, though rowling never specifies what the multiplicative limit is. (it is STRONGLY implied there is one, though. seventh book.)
So a little bit of gardening by the women goes a long way, though it may only be poor families that actually resort to it.
On the topic of illogical career paths, Bones has a real job that requires being a very good auror, rather than being an errand-boy for Dumbledore, as Moody seems to be.
And as for “what are these people doing running a boarding school”, they run a school based on reward and (mostly) punishment, rather than the growth of their pupils; they teach a rigid curriculum that seems to have remained unchanged for centuries, in spite of advances in both the magical and muggle worlds; and they socially condition people into narrow roles, largely defined by negative attitudes towards others, based solely on the House a piece of fabric sorts them into.
To be fair, that’s more support than Muggles give students choosing a major in college.
As a point of accuracy, it’s been stated a couple of times that Hogwarts is meant to follow the Ministry-mandated curriculum, so this one is not entirely “these people”’s fault.
Thanks for the correction.
Source?
Draco seems to believe that Hogwarts is an impregnable fortress, a secure base for whatever power Dumbledore wants to project. Headmaster of Hogwarts appears to be a title awarded by the Wizengamot, which also elects the Chief Warlock, and Draco regards it as a significant increment to the power of the Chief Warlock. Its function as a boarding school may be secondary and incidental. :)
Hogwarts is more like a university than most boarding schools.
Vanishingly low-confidence idea: Hermione realized that the Philosopher’s Stone is hidden at Hogwarts, went to retrieve it, and somehow in there the troll got loose.
Evidence against: canonically, the stone troll and the bathroom troll were distinct, Snape went to guard the third floor corridor, the troll was pretty deep within the gauntlet in canon, meaning that if it was placed similarly in methods, something complicated happened off screen, and Dumbledore’s wards over the corridor would doubtless have alerted him. And it wouldn’t be much of a victory for Hermione, since the stone’s actual canon protection was the mirror of Erised charmed to give the stone only to someone who wanted it, but not to use it, and Hermione was seeking the stone to help pay off Harry’s debt.
Evidence for: In Chamber of Secrets, Hermione manages to convey information in spite of being petrified, which would probably have been found sooner had Harry/Ron been more observant. And even then, she managed to get petrified rather than killed, since she knew what to expect. And in Philosopher’s Stone, she was the one who figured out the stone was at Hogwarts (though, admitedly this wouldn’t have been as likely without Hagrid’s extremely loose tongue, but in MoR she was researching the stone last we saw of her).
So yeah, I could see Hermione having accomplished something off screen between chapter 87 and 89, but for now I’ll keep my confidence of this happening below 50% barring stronger evidence.
Harry says:
You learn goodness from Hermione, and how to kill things efficiently from Quirrell. Who do you think is being valued here?
What the fic values above all else is a love and respect for life. Even the child who wants a sparkly throne and minions feels that way. Especially that child. All the various high powered smarty pantsing is entertainment and eye candy, not the core values of the fan fic. Not by a wide margin.
These “I’m offended” isms seem to be a very effective way to entirely miss the point of what someone else is saying, as you root about for the offensive kernel. It’s a fine hobby. You need never fail; find a difference and spin it negatively. Ta da! I’m offended! Whee! What fun!
Maybe I should try it. I suppose I could get my undies in a bunch over the misandrism in HPMOR, since as even you say
Huff huff huff. Stomp stomp stomp. I’m so offended.
Hmmm, just didn’t work for me. I’m not offended, and don’t want to be. Instead of getting huffy about how wonderful Hermione is portrayed relative to males in the story, I’d rather just love the Hermione character even though she doesn’t have the same genitalia that I do. Imagine that.
I think it’s sad that people are trapped in this ideology, looking for ways to be offended, casting a pall over everything they see.
I think you misunderstood. I wasn’t claiming to be offended myself, I was trying to get at the cause of people’s emotional reactions. Whether or not you believe those emotions are justified, they are almost always triggered by something.
I also specified that HPMOR values wit and scheming on its surface—that is, the scheming is what provides almost all the entertainment value and keeps people in their chairs long enough to hear the deeper ideology. What do we want from characters in a story at their most basic level? We want to have fun watching them. That’s why most people read stories, and it’s why most people read HPMOR. And the ones who are the most fun to watch are the male characters.
I didn’t claim this was intentional, nor that it was wrong, just that it was probably the cause of feminist complaints. It was in part an answer to “But the female characters are good people”. Being a good person is not always the same as being good in the story. In Disney movies, you have to be a wide-eyed dreamer. In Tarantino movies you have to be a stone-cold killing machine. In HPMOR (and Death Note) you have to be a hyperintelligent byzantine plotter. And then comes the ideology.
This may not have been put in the most diplomatic way possible, but I think the last sentence has merit. My first reaction upon reading the chapter was “wow, Harry did a masterful job of manipulating the hell out of the Malfoys” (not that the manipulation will be to the Malfoy’s detriment, but that’s beside the point). Then I find out that people are impressed with the competence of Lucius Malfoy and therefore sexism? I suppose it was good that Lucius wasn’t blinded by irrational hatred or greed, but that’s an awfully low bar to be setting for characters that impress you. He walked in with one plan that Harry saw through in a second.
I anticipate a few possibly short scenes where Harry does basically the same thing and manipulates Bones and Madam Longbottom into supporting him as well. If this scene is being held as evidence of sexism, the laws of evidence tell me those scenes should be held as evidence against, but somehow I don’t see it happening that way.
That said, if other people can see what they’re looking for then so can I, but that’s my take.
Actually, the law is that the average scene that isn’t Harry manipulating Lucius must be evidence against sexism, not that any such scene is evidence against sexism. Many of the possible scenes in the set {Harry doesn’t manipulate Lucius} are sexist.
Heads I’m offended. Tails I’m offended. As we used to say at the college poker game “Muahahahaha, I can’t lose!”
This tends to be my default preference...
Misandrist!
I think we’ll be seeing more of Bones...
I fear you are right. I really like Bones (pyromania aside), but her future doesn’t look good....