I presented two options; in one I acknowledge that the fault is entirely mine, and in the other people help me. You then interpreted this as “implying that they are evil assholes”. This means that I can’t even fold and admit defeat without it being interpreted as an aggressive act. What out is left for me, then?
There’s a whole gradient between those two options. You’re splitting) which is understandable. “Fault” doesn’t exist without other people, neither do parasites or defeat. How about “thanks for the suggestions, but I’ve tried them already and they don’t help”?
I’m aware of the concept, but I’m not sure I can communicate further in a meaningful fashion. There’s a disconnect between my internal state as I experience it, and my internal state as I’m able to communicate it, and I do not currently feel confident that I can communicate my internal state without it being picked apart and snapped to a label. The best I can communicate at this point is, “I am aware that my rationality is compromised, and I am aware that my ability to understand how my rationality is compromised is compromised, and I am aware that my ability to understand how to repair my rationality is compromised, and I am aware that my ability to recognize, distinguish, and execute good advice on how to repair my rationality is compromised, and I am aware that my ability to recognize who to trust to follow advice on how to repair my rationality is compromised. So now what?”
Going by that quoted part I’m confident you’re better off than most people since you’re aware of the problem :)
“Now what” is why LessWrong exists, and we’re still taking baby steps.
do not currently feel confident that I can communicate my internal state without it being picked apart and snapped to a label
See what you did there? This was again a statement about me, but you framed it as if it were a statement about you. Distrust and passive aggressive communication are two different things. Just pointing this out, I’m not insulted nor trying to be confrontational.
In my experience, the phrases “see what you did there?” and “just pointing this out” are strong signals that the speaker is deliberately trying to be confrontational, and is deliberately twisting words to embarrass me. (I have no idea if this is objectively true or not.)
I guess both could be true, but not exclusively. Could be also trying to lighten things up, not necessarily at your expense, and not necessarily with malevolent intentions.
You can never be certain about other people’s intentions, whether you’re depressed or not, but I suggest you ask yourself whether you want to have the kinds of default assumptions about people that make every social interaction a negative sum game.
You can never be certain about other people’s intentions, whether you’re depressed or not, but I suggest you ask yourself whether you want to have the kinds of default assumptions about people that make every social interaction a negative sum game.
That’s a really deep question, whose answer is very state-dependent.
As learning agents, our algorithms for dealing with the present are necessarily path-dependent. If my path through experience-space has shown me that most social interactions were negative-sum games at some point in the past, and that repeated attempts to behave as if they might NOT be negative-sum games result in losing, and losing badly, then it might not be worth the perceived risk to take a chance on new people, unless those new people go to extraordinary efforts to demonstrate that they aren’t playing a negative-sum game.
Now, posit that in the past, people have gone to extraordinary efforts to demonstrate that they weren’t playing a negative-sum game with me, only to turn around and spring elaborate traps, because they thought it was hilarious and worth the cost of the effort just to trip me up. Now what are my expectations primed to? What should I rationally expect from the world, given those priors?
I’m not sitting here accusing you of malevolent intent just because I’m a depressive curmudgeon. I’m also attempting to use this as an explanation for why people become depressive curmudgeons, and describe actual steps that I believe could be taken to break the cycle. When a system gets into a feedback loop, you don’t tell it that it’s being a bad system and it should feel bad; you change its inputs so the loop can be broken. If hundreds of other people are telling it that it’s being a bad system and it should feel bad, and those inputs are strengthening the loop, then if you want the loop to break you have even more work to do. Or you can acknowledge that the loop isn’t worth the effort of breaking.
Drilling down a level, you’re having trouble acknowledging that the loop isn’t worth the effort you would need to expend to break it, because YOU believe that that would make you an “evil asshole”. I made no such value judgment. In fact, I have complete empathy for people who realize that the effort that it would take to fix people with my level of psychological problems isn’t worth what they’d get out of it. But because YOU continue to believe that it would be evil for you to stop trying to help, AND because you know subconsciously that it would not be worth the effort to actually help, you continue to perform weak half-measures that only serve to agitate the problematic mind-states further, and then turn it around to being my fault when you do so.
I challenge you to re-read our conversation from that perspective, and ask yourself which facts lend towards which hypotheses. (And yes, there are alternate hypotheses. But when we’re talking about internal mental states, we cannot separate the map from the territory so easily.)
EDIT: I’m also going to try to tackle this a different way, through metaphor.
Imagine that a boat has capsized just offshore, and there are drowning people in the water who don’t know how to swim. (Ignore the point that people who can’t swim shouldn’t have been on the boat in the first place; this is life, you don’t get to pick where you’re born.) There are also some very good swimmers in the water, and they all start swimming merrily.
Now, the articles you just posted, are like standing on a rock just off-shore and shouting swimming lessons. Telling them to watch how the swimmers do it, and maybe even telling them specific techniques about positions and kicking and arm strokes and what-not. But for those who have already started taking on water, and panicking, and thrashing, that isn’t going to help them much even if they can hear you.
So, you dive in and try to rescue someone—it’s a pretty natural response. But he’s kicking and flailing and thrashing because his body is already in full-panic drowning mode, so he winds up punching and kicking at you. Maybe he even grabs you and starts dragging you down with him.
Telling him that he’s a bad swimmer and if he’s going to act like that he can just drown and it’ll be his fault isn’t going to do him any damn good, is it?
On the other hand, acknowledging that maybe you aren’t a coast guard, and if you’re going to rescue people you might need to know how to rescue people who are kicking and thrashing and actively resisting, will make you much better at this.
The trouble is, in the USA today, there aren’t very many coast guards (psychologists) who will just dive in and pull people out of the water for free, and most of the people who are drowning are the ones least able to afford payment.
Ideally, we’d rescue drowning people for free, then put them in a safe pool where we can teach them to swim. Instead, when we do rescue drowning people, we just throw them back out into the water and then get mad when they start drowning again. And if they shout too loudly, we tend to tell them to go drown someplace else where they won’t bother us.
If you managed to read the comment I posted and removed yesterday, I’m sorry. I shouldn’t post at all in the evening.
I have experience with depression both personally and professionally, so you don’t have to explain to me what it is. This doesn’t mean I know the optimal way to handle it, or that all forms of it can be handled the same. If you have a strong bias against antidepressants, which is quite common, you should acknowledge that before reading further, not because I’m going to recommend them to you, but because reading those linked comments might cause a negative halo effect on me and the rest of this reply.
As learning agents, our algorithms for dealing with the present are necessarily path-dependent. If my path through experience-space has shown me that most social interactions were negative-sum games at some point in the past, and that repeated attempts to behave as if they might NOT be negative-sum games result in losing, and losing badly, then it might not be worth the perceived risk to take a chance on new people, unless those new people go to extraordinary efforts to demonstrate that they aren’t playing a negative-sum game.
I wasn’t communicating clearly, sorry about that. I didn’t mean you shouldn’t calibrate your expectations according to your experience. I meant you shouldn’t necessarily calibrate how you treat people according to your experience. Expecting the worst from people, and telling people you’re expecting the worst from them are two entirely different things. The latter is going to make it more probable that people treat you badly, whether the probability is low or high to begin with. Worse than that, it’s going to make you miscalibrate your expectations.
Now, posit that in the past, people have gone to extraordinary efforts to demonstrate that they weren’t playing a negative-sum game with me, only to turn around and spring elaborate traps, because they thought it was hilarious and worth the cost of the effort just to trip me up. Now what are my expectations primed to? What should I rationally expect from the world, given those priors?
I see. I’ve had a few such experiences too, no doubt damaging. What do you think about treating your expectations and your emotional investment in people as separate things? Acting like you trust people on default doesn’t necessarily mean you need to get emotionally invested in them, but it will almost certainly make them treat you better. Take this interaction for example. I’m not expecting you to get emotionally invested in me, but I’m expecting you’re not constantly acting like I’m attacking you. In fact, you said it quite well yourself:
my usual pattern of assumption is NOT that people in general are evil assholes; it’s that I’m caught in a loop of behaviors that provokes them into questioning my veracity, I overreact to their questioning, and they become primed to act assholeish towards me, thus reinforcing the pattern
--
I’m not sitting here accusing you of malevolent intent just because I’m a depressive curmudgeon. I’m also attempting to use this as an explanation for why people become depressive curmudgeons, and describe actual steps that I believe could be taken to break the cycle.
I’m quite certain people become depressive curmudgeons in various different ways, to various different degrees, and benefit from different kinds of treatment approaches. Don’t generalize from one example, or think your mind is typical for all depressive people.
When a system gets into a feedback loop, you don’t tell it that it’s being a bad system and it should feel bad; you change its inputs so the loop can be broken. If hundreds of other people are telling it that it’s being a bad system and it should feel bad, and those inputs are strengthening the loop, then if you want the loop to break you have even more work to do. Or you can acknowledge that the loop isn’t worth the effort of breaking.
When someone corrects you, it hurts. When you’re depressed it hurts more. I think you’re instinctively jumping from this to the false conclusion that when people correct you, they want to hurt you. You’re not a bad system and you should not feel bad. Those are not my reasons for correcting you. LessWrong is all about people correcting each other and improving that way. People are biased in general ways and depressed people are biased in more specific ways.
If I hadn’t talked about splitting but confirmation bias for example, would you have taken it as badly? Do you think people shouldn’t correct you in general, or that they shouldn’t correct you when your behaviour is clearly caused by depression? Does pointing out that you have confirmation bias cause you to feel that you’re a bad system?
Keeping in mind this is LessWrong: If you don’t want people correcting you about something, don’t bring it up.
Drilling down a level, you’re having trouble acknowledging that the loop isn’t worth the effort you would need to expend to break it, because YOU believe that that would make you an “evil asshole”. I made no such value judgment.
You implied that people who correct you do so to get an excuse to call you a parasite, a bad system, whatever. If I really believed I did that, then yes I would believe I’m an evil asshole. It’s true you didn’t make that value judgement, but you’re incorrect about why I made it.
In fact, I have complete empathy for people who realize that the effort that it would take to fix people with my level of psychological problems isn’t worth what they’d get out of it.
I have no illusions about fixing you. If I nudge you in the right direction, great, if not, at least I’ve learned something about people.
But because YOU continue to believe that it would be evil for you to stop trying to help
I don’t believe that. I’m mostly an egoist, although I do have altruistic tendencies like most people.
you continue to perform weak half-measures that only serve to agitate the problematic mind-states further, and then turn it around to being my fault when you do so.
Some people take advice, some don’t. This applies to depressed people too. For people who have depressive tendencies, we’re both highly atypical, in the sense that we’re interested in X-rationality. If I expected you to be a typical depressed person, I wouldn’t talk to you in this particular manner, and would have indeed expected that correcting you is utterly useless to begin with.
Concerning your metaphor, not all depressed people are drowning, although some are. Some didn’t know how to swim in the first place, some forgot how to swim in specific ways and talking to them without giving them practical swimming lessons could be sufficient for making them better swimmers in relatively calm waters.
This thread has become painstaking enough that it’s time for me to eject.
nod on an individual level, I appreciate the feels. In my case, I know computer programming, and I’ve just this week managed to claw my way out of five years of unemployment and back into a reasonably well-paying career job, so I should have access to the necessary resources shortly.
But remember that many, many people do not. As EY keeps pointing out, the world is hideously unfair, and there are all sorts of completely random and harsh events that can cause otherwise intelligent and creative and “deserving” people to fail to live up to their potential, or even permanently lose a portion of that potential. (Or, in the case of death, ALL of that potential.) If we really want to see a world that is less crazy, those of us who have the power to might consider ways to build environments that don’t throw people into such destructive, irrational feedback loops. “Here’s how people who don’t suck behave” is less useful for that than “here’s what environments look like that don’t make people who suck as often.”
If we really want to see a world that is less crazy, those of us who have the power to might consider ways to build environments that don’t throw people into such destructive, irrational feedback loops. “Here’s how people who don’t suck behave” is less useful for that than “here’s what environments look like that don’t make people who suck as often.”
This reminds me of what CFAR does with comfort zone expansion. I’m not sure what else they have in that vein, but it does seem to fit under “fixing broken social modules.”
“Here’s how people who don’t suck behave” is less useful for that than “here’s what environments look like that don’t make people who suck as often.”
What would such environments look like? Can you point out any existing examples? What kinds of costs do those environments impose on healthy people? Is torture vs dust specks relevant? Btw you don’t suck.
I was not trying to rescue you, nor do I have any illusions about that whatsoever. I was trying to have a conversation. The articles were not intended to be swimming lessons, and I’m quite aware I have no resources to give you such lessons.
I’m not mad at you for drowning nor blaming you for anything which is what I’ve been trying to explain to you, and if that’s the only idea you’ll get from this conversation, I will be quite satisfied. I would not risk drowning to save you, especially since I’m a depressive curmudgeon myself, so that’s not something you’ll have to worry about.
ETA: there are different levels of bad swimmers, and you shouldn’t assume they’re all drowning. Some of them take swimming advice just fine, but you can’t really know who they are until you talk to them.
There’s a whole gradient between those two options. You’re splitting) which is understandable. “Fault” doesn’t exist without other people, neither do parasites or defeat. How about “thanks for the suggestions, but I’ve tried them already and they don’t help”?
I’m aware of the concept, but I’m not sure I can communicate further in a meaningful fashion. There’s a disconnect between my internal state as I experience it, and my internal state as I’m able to communicate it, and I do not currently feel confident that I can communicate my internal state without it being picked apart and snapped to a label. The best I can communicate at this point is, “I am aware that my rationality is compromised, and I am aware that my ability to understand how my rationality is compromised is compromised, and I am aware that my ability to understand how to repair my rationality is compromised, and I am aware that my ability to recognize, distinguish, and execute good advice on how to repair my rationality is compromised, and I am aware that my ability to recognize who to trust to follow advice on how to repair my rationality is compromised. So now what?”
Going by that quoted part I’m confident you’re better off than most people since you’re aware of the problem :)
“Now what” is why LessWrong exists, and we’re still taking baby steps.
See what you did there? This was again a statement about me, but you framed it as if it were a statement about you. Distrust and passive aggressive communication are two different things. Just pointing this out, I’m not insulted nor trying to be confrontational.
In my experience, the phrases “see what you did there?” and “just pointing this out” are strong signals that the speaker is deliberately trying to be confrontational, and is deliberately twisting words to embarrass me. (I have no idea if this is objectively true or not.)
I guess both could be true, but not exclusively. Could be also trying to lighten things up, not necessarily at your expense, and not necessarily with malevolent intentions.
You can never be certain about other people’s intentions, whether you’re depressed or not, but I suggest you ask yourself whether you want to have the kinds of default assumptions about people that make every social interaction a negative sum game.
That’s a really deep question, whose answer is very state-dependent.
As learning agents, our algorithms for dealing with the present are necessarily path-dependent. If my path through experience-space has shown me that most social interactions were negative-sum games at some point in the past, and that repeated attempts to behave as if they might NOT be negative-sum games result in losing, and losing badly, then it might not be worth the perceived risk to take a chance on new people, unless those new people go to extraordinary efforts to demonstrate that they aren’t playing a negative-sum game.
Now, posit that in the past, people have gone to extraordinary efforts to demonstrate that they weren’t playing a negative-sum game with me, only to turn around and spring elaborate traps, because they thought it was hilarious and worth the cost of the effort just to trip me up. Now what are my expectations primed to? What should I rationally expect from the world, given those priors?
I’m not sitting here accusing you of malevolent intent just because I’m a depressive curmudgeon. I’m also attempting to use this as an explanation for why people become depressive curmudgeons, and describe actual steps that I believe could be taken to break the cycle. When a system gets into a feedback loop, you don’t tell it that it’s being a bad system and it should feel bad; you change its inputs so the loop can be broken. If hundreds of other people are telling it that it’s being a bad system and it should feel bad, and those inputs are strengthening the loop, then if you want the loop to break you have even more work to do. Or you can acknowledge that the loop isn’t worth the effort of breaking.
Drilling down a level, you’re having trouble acknowledging that the loop isn’t worth the effort you would need to expend to break it, because YOU believe that that would make you an “evil asshole”. I made no such value judgment. In fact, I have complete empathy for people who realize that the effort that it would take to fix people with my level of psychological problems isn’t worth what they’d get out of it. But because YOU continue to believe that it would be evil for you to stop trying to help, AND because you know subconsciously that it would not be worth the effort to actually help, you continue to perform weak half-measures that only serve to agitate the problematic mind-states further, and then turn it around to being my fault when you do so.
I challenge you to re-read our conversation from that perspective, and ask yourself which facts lend towards which hypotheses. (And yes, there are alternate hypotheses. But when we’re talking about internal mental states, we cannot separate the map from the territory so easily.)
EDIT: I’m also going to try to tackle this a different way, through metaphor.
Imagine that a boat has capsized just offshore, and there are drowning people in the water who don’t know how to swim. (Ignore the point that people who can’t swim shouldn’t have been on the boat in the first place; this is life, you don’t get to pick where you’re born.) There are also some very good swimmers in the water, and they all start swimming merrily.
Now, the articles you just posted, are like standing on a rock just off-shore and shouting swimming lessons. Telling them to watch how the swimmers do it, and maybe even telling them specific techniques about positions and kicking and arm strokes and what-not. But for those who have already started taking on water, and panicking, and thrashing, that isn’t going to help them much even if they can hear you.
So, you dive in and try to rescue someone—it’s a pretty natural response. But he’s kicking and flailing and thrashing because his body is already in full-panic drowning mode, so he winds up punching and kicking at you. Maybe he even grabs you and starts dragging you down with him.
Telling him that he’s a bad swimmer and if he’s going to act like that he can just drown and it’ll be his fault isn’t going to do him any damn good, is it?
On the other hand, acknowledging that maybe you aren’t a coast guard, and if you’re going to rescue people you might need to know how to rescue people who are kicking and thrashing and actively resisting, will make you much better at this.
The trouble is, in the USA today, there aren’t very many coast guards (psychologists) who will just dive in and pull people out of the water for free, and most of the people who are drowning are the ones least able to afford payment.
Ideally, we’d rescue drowning people for free, then put them in a safe pool where we can teach them to swim. Instead, when we do rescue drowning people, we just throw them back out into the water and then get mad when they start drowning again. And if they shout too loudly, we tend to tell them to go drown someplace else where they won’t bother us.
If you managed to read the comment I posted and removed yesterday, I’m sorry. I shouldn’t post at all in the evening.
I have experience with depression both personally and professionally, so you don’t have to explain to me what it is. This doesn’t mean I know the optimal way to handle it, or that all forms of it can be handled the same. If you have a strong bias against antidepressants, which is quite common, you should acknowledge that before reading further, not because I’m going to recommend them to you, but because reading those linked comments might cause a negative halo effect on me and the rest of this reply.
I wasn’t communicating clearly, sorry about that. I didn’t mean you shouldn’t calibrate your expectations according to your experience. I meant you shouldn’t necessarily calibrate how you treat people according to your experience. Expecting the worst from people, and telling people you’re expecting the worst from them are two entirely different things. The latter is going to make it more probable that people treat you badly, whether the probability is low or high to begin with. Worse than that, it’s going to make you miscalibrate your expectations.
I see. I’ve had a few such experiences too, no doubt damaging. What do you think about treating your expectations and your emotional investment in people as separate things? Acting like you trust people on default doesn’t necessarily mean you need to get emotionally invested in them, but it will almost certainly make them treat you better. Take this interaction for example. I’m not expecting you to get emotionally invested in me, but I’m expecting you’re not constantly acting like I’m attacking you. In fact, you said it quite well yourself:
--
I’m quite certain people become depressive curmudgeons in various different ways, to various different degrees, and benefit from different kinds of treatment approaches. Don’t generalize from one example, or think your mind is typical for all depressive people.
When someone corrects you, it hurts. When you’re depressed it hurts more. I think you’re instinctively jumping from this to the false conclusion that when people correct you, they want to hurt you. You’re not a bad system and you should not feel bad. Those are not my reasons for correcting you. LessWrong is all about people correcting each other and improving that way. People are biased in general ways and depressed people are biased in more specific ways.
If I hadn’t talked about splitting but confirmation bias for example, would you have taken it as badly? Do you think people shouldn’t correct you in general, or that they shouldn’t correct you when your behaviour is clearly caused by depression? Does pointing out that you have confirmation bias cause you to feel that you’re a bad system?
Keeping in mind this is LessWrong: If you don’t want people correcting you about something, don’t bring it up.
You implied that people who correct you do so to get an excuse to call you a parasite, a bad system, whatever. If I really believed I did that, then yes I would believe I’m an evil asshole. It’s true you didn’t make that value judgement, but you’re incorrect about why I made it.
I have no illusions about fixing you. If I nudge you in the right direction, great, if not, at least I’ve learned something about people.
I don’t believe that. I’m mostly an egoist, although I do have altruistic tendencies like most people.
Some people take advice, some don’t. This applies to depressed people too. For people who have depressive tendencies, we’re both highly atypical, in the sense that we’re interested in X-rationality. If I expected you to be a typical depressed person, I wouldn’t talk to you in this particular manner, and would have indeed expected that correcting you is utterly useless to begin with.
Concerning your metaphor, not all depressed people are drowning, although some are. Some didn’t know how to swim in the first place, some forgot how to swim in specific ways and talking to them without giving them practical swimming lessons could be sufficient for making them better swimmers in relatively calm waters.
This thread has become painstaking enough that it’s time for me to eject.
Wow, I feel for you. I wish you good luck and good analysis.
nod on an individual level, I appreciate the feels. In my case, I know computer programming, and I’ve just this week managed to claw my way out of five years of unemployment and back into a reasonably well-paying career job, so I should have access to the necessary resources shortly.
But remember that many, many people do not. As EY keeps pointing out, the world is hideously unfair, and there are all sorts of completely random and harsh events that can cause otherwise intelligent and creative and “deserving” people to fail to live up to their potential, or even permanently lose a portion of that potential. (Or, in the case of death, ALL of that potential.) If we really want to see a world that is less crazy, those of us who have the power to might consider ways to build environments that don’t throw people into such destructive, irrational feedback loops. “Here’s how people who don’t suck behave” is less useful for that than “here’s what environments look like that don’t make people who suck as often.”
This reminds me of what CFAR does with comfort zone expansion. I’m not sure what else they have in that vein, but it does seem to fit under “fixing broken social modules.”
Indeed. As soon as I have money and time saved up, I am going to dive whole-heartedly into CFAR workshops.
What would such environments look like? Can you point out any existing examples? What kinds of costs do those environments impose on healthy people? Is torture vs dust specks relevant? Btw you don’t suck.
xkcd
I was not trying to rescue you, nor do I have any illusions about that whatsoever. I was trying to have a conversation. The articles were not intended to be swimming lessons, and I’m quite aware I have no resources to give you such lessons.
I’m not mad at you for drowning nor blaming you for anything which is what I’ve been trying to explain to you, and if that’s the only idea you’ll get from this conversation, I will be quite satisfied. I would not risk drowning to save you, especially since I’m a depressive curmudgeon myself, so that’s not something you’ll have to worry about.
ETA: there are different levels of bad swimmers, and you shouldn’t assume they’re all drowning. Some of them take swimming advice just fine, but you can’t really know who they are until you talk to them.